Ben Cabe: George, thank you for contributing this piece about the Reformed worldview / understanding of the Incarnation and the cross. In the stead of a long comment, I will write a response in the form of an article. Look for that this week, sometime before Christmas. Thanks again

George Aldhizer: Very much so looking forward to it. I don’t want the article to read as aimed against Orthodox or Methodist views. I think the views I outlined from these reformed creeds are in many ways shared across Christian traditions. What I was meaning to say in the footnote is that one could read the article as rebutting a couple of comments in the Round Table discussion, though that is not the starting point of the article.

All of that is to say I’m excited to read your upcoming article. Hope that gives you a better picture of where I was coming from in writing the piece.

Ben Cabe: Thank you, George. In contrast, my article may be a little more critical. However, my intention is to outline the importance of the Incarnation—an importance for both pre-fallen and fallen mankind. Should be posted on Christmas day.

Your article gives me a great platform to propound the Orthodox understanding of the Incarnation. I value your insights and beliefs (which many others share)—although we disagree on this subject (more specifically on the eternal will of the Father and whether the Incarnation would have taken place for pre-fallen man) I am greatly appreciative of your work here on Conciliar Post. I do mention you and the article in my up-and-coming piece. I will take this comment into consideration while crafting my references to your intent.

George Aldhizer: I welcome the critical 🙂 Merry Christmas to you!

Benjamin Winter:  I love your focus on humility in this article. Also, the Catechism quotations were very informative.

It will be interesting to see the dialog continue with Ben’s upcoming post. I do have a question now for George, though! You state: “The Incarnation, rather than being a stand-alone celebration, proceeds from an eternal will that precedes it, and results in a death that reconciles.” My question is about the eternal will behind the incarnation. How would you answer the critique that your focus on the reconciling death (effect #1 of 4 from my post on the roundtable) seems to tie God too closely to the injustice of sin, or rather, to give sin (which is not a thing in in itself, but a “missing the mark”) too important a role in the divine economy?

Another articulation of my thoughts: If the sole purpose of the incarnation involves God identifying himself with humanity through taking on sin, does it then follow that God’s will and sin are too closely tied? So this can perhaps be seen as a question about the effects of God’s foreknowledge, and about the extent of human freedom (which is a question of anthropology), especially given that your acknowledgment that “God from eternity past decided to create the world, knowing that it would fall into sin.” Thanks!

George Aldhizer: Thanks Benjamin for your probing questions. I have a feeling that Ben’s response article coming out tomorrow may assume that this article is saying too much than I mean it to say, maybe that reflects poor writing on my part. By the statement, “Christmas is about the Cross,” I don’t mean to be saying Christmas is only or even primarily about the cross. I’m merely hoping to connect our imaginations from Advent and Christmas to Good Friday (and then Easter). I also don’t want this to be viewed as THE Reformed view on the Incarnation, or even THE Reformed view on the atonement. I think there is more to the Incarnation than subsequent atonement (as my prior article on setting the captives free in my earlier article) and there is more to the Reformed view on the cross than penal substitution.

In my footnote #3, I write that there can be a serious danger in thinking that Christ only came to earth to die. I’m sure Ben will accuse me of missing the very important doctrine of union with Christ within my article. Maybe that shows a blind spot in my article, but I believe it shows that I wasn’t trying to that much within my article. So, Benjamin, when you write, “If the sole purpose of the incarnation involves God identifying himself with humanity through taking on sin…” I don’t believe that in the slightest. Again, that may reflect poor writing on my part, or a (very right) recognition that the evangelicalism that I write from too often equates Christ’s birth with his death. (These two points are not meant to say that Ben will not have anything left to critique)

As for your important questions Benjamin. In the article, I’m attempting to write concerning Reformed Trinitarian soteriology, that I think is nicely summed up by Michael Horton, “The doctrines of the Trinity and predestination (or God’s decree) converge at the point of the eternal covenant of redemption (pactum salutis) between the persons of the Godhead. In that covenant, before the world existed, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit already turn toward us, with a purpose to create, redeem, and gather a church for everlasting fellowship. As in all of God’s external operations, both the eternal decree itself and its execution in history are accomplished from the Father, in the Son, through the Spirit.”

So, given that framework, certainly sin is, in some sense, tied to the eternal will of God. More specifically, redemption is tied to the eternal will of God. “Everlasting fellowship” with God as the end goal requires a reconciliatory death, given that God knows humanity will fall into sin. I’d be curious if you believe that those explanations still fall into your critiques.

Ben Cabe: Benjamin and George, thank you for these comments. I do believe there is some truth in how I will critique George’s article–as I did read this as “the incarnation does not have any value in itself”, which I am not convinced as of this last comment, that George actually believes.

This being so, the value of my piece may be the explanation of why I believe the incarnation would have happened even without the fall. And that man needed it in order to achieve this union with God (like Goerge says I will critique him) even before the fall.

I also wanted to point out in the article that the incarnation does accomplish something tangible (even without the cross). However, because of our fallenness, it is both the Incarnation and the cross that make open the way for our salvation–not one without the other.

The question is, would man have needed the incarnation if he had not fallen. I would answer yes. For those reasons, look for the article tomorrow morning.

Thanks again, George. Like I said, my article is critical, but I am in no way attempting to attack you; just attempting (probably poorly) to explain my line of thinking, and why claiming the Incarnation was not needed for pre-fallen man, seems to go against the telos of man, man’s creation in the image and likeness, and creation ex nihilo.

George Aldhizer:  Again, I’m looking forward to it Ben. I look forward to it both because it’s about me, and it challenges my views. And also because I think it will be the first article written specifically on one of the author’s views of Conciliar Post. I think that kind of engagement among authors (if done well and charitably) is a valuable thing for the site.

Just to clarify, I do believe that the incarnation is not valuable in and of itself. What I mean by this is that god in the flesh does not reconcile a sinful humanity to God, for we remain sinners in the midst of a holy God. Thus, the cross must be connected to the mission of the incarnation. This is not to say that the incarnation is not important for the many ways that the Orthodox believe it to be, just that God in the flesh does not reconcile in and of itself.

Just to be clear, the comment that “the incarnation is not valuable in and of itself” is aimed at sinful humanity, not a hypothetical pre-fall humanity. I look forward to the article, maybe this is too much discussion pre-article haha.

Ben Cabe: Ah, yes. That is what I suspected: that you believe the Incarnation is of no value (to post-fallen) humanity (with respect to reconciliation) without the cross. I would disagree with this. Hence, the article.


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