“For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace”-Ephesians 1:4-7

What beautiful good news. God, before all of creation, has decided to give grace and the status of adopted son to me, chief of sinners. Though I am not “holy and blameless,” God’s righteous son Jesus surely is, and I have been predestined to be united with his riches. What a glorious gospel Christians share.

I write this introductory paragraph of worship because there is an awful misconception that Calvinists and Reformed theology are about “predestination,” whereas other Christians are about “free will.” Battle lines are drawn and weapons are forged in a war that largely misrepresents the other side’s position (see Catholics massacre some Calvinists in the above image of the St. Bartholomew’s Day Massacre, I’m only being tongue-in-cheek of course). In what follows, I hope to faithfully elucidate where the real war is and should be waged, for both believe in some form of predestination and free will. Further, I will argue that what many non-Calvinists believe as the problem of the Calvinist understanding of predestination, namely that God arbitrarily elects a chosen people for no reason and leaves the rest for damnation, is a burden that is actually shouldered by both sides of the debate. To do this, I will be utilizing the 1992 Catechism of the Catholic Church and the 17th century Reformed confessional document Canons of Dort.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church1 reads in the scriptures a God who wills the salvation of every individual human being, God in Christ “tak[ing] the initiative of universal redeeming love.”2 The Catechism cites in evidence 2 Peter 3:9, in which God does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance.” God thus wills that each would freely respond to his drawing, as “all mankind” is “called by God’s grace to salvation.”3 Probably the most direct statement concerning predestination within the Catechism is found within statement 600, “To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of “predestination”, he includes in it each person’s free response to his grace.”4

Predestination, within this plan, is thus conditional upon the faith of the individual. God in eternity looks down the halls of history, knowing that a certain person will exhibit saving faith in response to God’s universal redeeming love, and incorporates that person into the elect, the predestined. This understanding of a predestination predicated on foreseen faith has the priest to recite this Eucharistic prayer, “Father, accept this offering from your whole family. Grant us your peace in this life, save us from final damnation, and count us among those you have chosen.”(my emphasis)5

Contrary to the Catechism’s understanding of conditional predestination based on foreseen faith, the Reformed understanding of predestination is unconditional, not predicated on anything God sees (faith or otherwise) in the creature. Also contrary to the Catechism’s reading of the scriptures that understands God to long for the salvation of every individual, the Reformed understand God to effectually will the salvation of the elect. Based upon readings of Ephesians 2, in which humanity is declared “dead” in our sins, in order to freely respond to God’s grace, we must be “made alive” in Christ. Freedom, then, is only found when God’s spirit releases one from enslavement to sin, bringing one from death to life. Further, the Reformed do not view the faith of a Christian as incorporating one into the predestined (see “count us among those you have chosen” above). Rather, the faith of a Christian is a result of God’s having predestined them. The Reformed place heavy emphasis on Romans 8:30 which reads, “Those whom he predestined, he also called; and those whom he called, he also justified; and those whom he justified, he also glorified.” The Canons of Dort summarize this Reformed logic:

“Before the foundation of the world, by sheer grace, according to the free good pleasure of his will, God chose in Christ to salvation a definite number of particular people out of the entire human race, which had fallen by its own fault from its original innocence into sin and ruin. Those chosen were neither better nor more deserving than the others, but lay with them in the common misery. God did this in Christ, whom he also appointed from eternity to be the mediator, the head of all those chosen, and the foundation of their salvation.”6

In response to the idea of predestination predicated on foreseen faith, explained above within the Catechism of the Catholic Church, the Canons of Dort criticize,

“This same election took place, not on the basis of foreseen faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, or of any other good quality and disposition, as though it were based on a prerequisite cause or condition in the person to be chosen, but rather for the purpose of faith, of the obedience of faith, of holiness, and so on. Accordingly, election is the source of every saving good. Faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts, and at last eternal life itself, flow forth from election as its fruits and effects. As the apostle says, “He chose us” (not because we were, but) “so that we should be holy and blameless before him in love” (Eph. 1:4).”7

Rather than making this article an argument of exegesis as to which document has the scriptures right concerning predestination (personally, I find Romans 8:30, among other passages and arguments, very persuasive in favor of the Reformed view), I want to clear up a common misconception concerning the Reformed view of predestination. This misconception runs something like this, “The Reformed view of predestination is arbitrary. In this view, God elects some and not others and therefore God would have to be unjust for sending the non-elect to hell and the elect to heaven. The true God is not arbitrary, therefore the Reformed understanding of predestination is wrong.” In the following, I want to argue that the Catechism’s (and other Protestant) views of predestination predicated on foreseen faith fall into this same criticism of arbitrariness.

Again, just to reiterate: the Catechism’s view of predestination understands that God, prior to creating the world, looked down the halls of history, as it were, to see those humans that would freely choose saving faith. Those humans are therefore incorporated into God’s plan of predestination. Faith, on this view, is a free decision of the human being in response to God’s initial drawing by his grace. Now, let’s assume two basic propositions that shouldn’t be very controversial across Christian traditions. First, some people in this world, as a result of their sin and rejection of their creator, will be separated from God in hell. That is, salvation is not universal. Second, God could’ve created a world other than this world. That is, God is free to create various colors, animals, elements, laws of physics, and human beings as he pleases.

Stay with me. Within the Catechism’s view, 1) God predestines people based on their foreseen faith, 2) some humans that are created are eternally separated from God, and 3) God could’ve created a different world other than this one. Sixteenth century Jesuit theologian Luis de Molina argued, utilizing these presuppositions, that God knows what would be the case if God were to place human beings in different circumstances than they have been placed.8 God utilizes what molinist philosopher William Lane Craig describes as “counterfactuals of creaturely freedom,” in order to place human beings into circumstances in which they, on their own free will, will respond to God’s saving grace.9 In this understanding of divine foreknowledge, God creates a world in which x person exhibits saving faith as a result of his own free decision, and y person does not respond to God’s extended arm of grace. Molina then recognizes, if God were to create a different world, then different people could be saved or damned. Person x could be given different parents, exposure to persuasive humanist literature, an early death, and on and on, such that he would be damned. Person y, on the other hand, could be born in other circumstances to bring her to faith. Thus, it seems to me, if we grant the three propositions laid out earlier, 1) God predestines based on foreseen faith, 2) Universal salvation is not true, and 3) God could’ve created a different world than this one, then those who follow the Catechism ought to agree with Molina that God predestines persons to salvation or damnation as a result of the circumstances God places them in.

Now, if this is true, then the criticism of Calvinists that God arbitrarily elects some to salvation and leaves others to damnation is true of both sides of the debate. Catholics (and it seems to me, all, if not most non-Calvinist Christians)10 are not immune to this critique, for God could have created the world in circumstances that predestine x person to foreseen faith or to foreseen eternal separation. God, within both understandings of predestination, falls into the same critique of arbitrariness in his predestination of individuals. Thus, this argument of arbitrariness is not a good argument against the Reformed view of predestination.

Some may say this debate is useless, that I am splitting useless theological hairs. To the contrary, this analysis should pull all believers into worship of the God who has chosen to bestow the riches of his grace upon us, his predestined elect. Though I was dead in my sin and undeserving of grace, God has called me into fellowship with the Trinity and union with his Son. Though God could’ve created a world in which sin reigned until death swallowed us whole, Christ has swallowed up death in his resurrection, reigning victorious for those who trust in him.

[wpex more=”View Sources” less=”Hide Sources”]

1. Readers need note that I am using the Catholic Catechism of 1992 as the representative for Catholic doctrine. I intentionally use the “Catechism” rather than “Catholic doctrine” or “Catholics believe” because of the following. In a conversation with my Catholic editor, I learned that Molina’s view of predestination, alongside of Thomas Aquinas’s view of predestination and the view that predestination is a mystery, is one among three acceptable doctrinal positions for faithful Catholics to take. Aquinas, fascinatingly, in my reading of him, contradicts the Catechism on this point of predestination, in favor of a more Reformed understanding. Following Augustine, Aquinas believes that God draws some and not others, allowing for God to display both his mercy and justice upon sinners. This seems to contradict the tenor of the Catechism, that favors a universal-drawing and equal-grace-giving God to each individual human being. The Catechism, in my reading, is not impartial among three different opportunities for faithful Catholics to believe concerning predestination, but decidedly promotes the Molinist view.

Read “Reply to Objection 3” within Article 5, http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1023.htm

2. Catholic Church, “Jesus Died Crucified,” Catechism of the Catholic Church, 602, http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm

3. Catholic Church, “The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic,” Catechism of the Catholic Church, 836, http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

4. Catholic Church, “Jesus Died Crucified,” Catechism of the Catholic Church, 600, http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a4p2.htm

5. Ibid., 620

6. “Canons of Dort,” Christian Reformed Church, Divine Election and Reprobation, Article 7, http://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort

7. Ibid., Divine Election and Reprobation, Article 9

8. “Middle Knowledge,” Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy, http://www.iep.utm.edu/middlekn/

9. William Lane Craig, “God Directs All Things On Behalf of a Molinist View of Providence,” In Four Views on Divine Providence, (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 2011)

10. The only Christians immmune, it seems to me, would be Open Theists, who deny that God knows the future with certainty. This, in my view, would undermine any belief in predestination.[/wpex]

61 responses to “The Problem of Predestination: Reformed and Catholic Theology in Dialogue”

  1. Ben Cabe Avatar

    Well articulated, George—though I could not disagree more, I am appreciative of this article.

    I used to be quite wrapped up in this debate (though on the opposite side). So much so that I was completely shut of to any terminology of “sovereignty” or “predestination”. However, since becoming Orthodox, this debate has fallen by the wayside. Reading books like, “Our Thoughts Determine Our Lives” by Elder Thaddeus help reconcile these two things (although not in a Molinist manner) for me. (I highly recommend that book!) For us, it isn’t about trying to make the two things fit together. It’s a mystery.

    Concerning the Orthodox point of view, I will say that there is, indeed, an emphasis on synergy with God—being God’s fellow workers (synergoi in Greek), as Paul says in 1 Cor 3:9. This is largely due to our understanding of God, who is love. Although I am unsure if your critique about “shouldering the burden of arbitrariness” is applicable to Orthodoxy . . . The way I understand it, the fire in hell is the uncreated fire of God (God’s love experienced differently by those who hate him). In other words, God is ever overflowing in love toward his creation, to those who love him, it is heaven, to those who hate him, it is hell. (Even if I descend into the depths, you are there Psalm 139:8). Consider, by way of analogy, the strength of humility—those attempting to incite one to wrath hate nothing more than a humble response . . . It tends to make the protagonist even angrier.

    I’m not attempting to conclusively prove anything, just merely stating it as I see it (from an Orthodox point of view).

    As a side note, that passage in Ephesians, and the terminology of sonship, seems to be to be tied to the mystery of the Incarnation—predestination in terms of being in the image and likeness of God, and the fulfillment of that by the Only Begotten Son of God, Jesus Christ, which enables us to be adopted sons.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      So, when I read your post Ben, this is what I believe the implications are. Let me know if you believe I am misrepresenting you.

      First, It seems that we can say one of three things when it comes to God’s sovereignty in predestination, 1) God elects to salvation outside of anything in the person, faith or otherwise (Calvinism), 2) God elects to salvation those whom God foreknew who place faith in Christ, or 3) I’m not sure which one is true, it’s a divine mystery.

      It seems that we cannot hold, as you do in your comment, both “It’s a mystery” and “there is synergy with God.” As soon as you take a synergist account of salvation (we respond to God’s grace by placing our faith in him, and we could reject that offer of grace), then we no longer take a pure “mystery” approach. Predestination, under a synergistic account, can only mean predicated on foreseen faith, as I’ve noted in my article.

      And then, the argument of my paper is that once you take that route, and understand Molina’s logical conclusions (God could’ve created a world in which Ben had no exposure to the good news of the gospel), then we understand that God elects people to salvation and leaves others to damnation under both Calvinism (a monergist account of salvation) and an Orthodox account of salvation/predestination (synergism with foreseen faith).

      It’s true, I used to be super jazzed about this debate, actually when I was an Arminian before my conversion to Reformed theology. When I became Reformed, ironically, it became less of an important issue to me. I still think it’s an important topic, for Calvinists believe the gospel to be different than other Christians (I say this with not as much weight as other Calvinists would, it’s not as if I believe Catholics to be preaching a “false gospel,” though our understandings of the gospel are different), so it must be of some importance. So, I’m with you, I’m not as wrapped up in this debate (it took me like fifteen posts to write about it), but I do believe it is an important conversation.

      Oh, and I certainly agree with you that the Incarnation is extremely important in predestination discussions. Thank you. Yeah, we are predestined not merely out of sin but into Christ’s righteousness and into sanctification, being conformed to the image of the Incarnate Son. Thank you for your continued Orthodox aroma.

      1. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Thanks, George.

        Our disagreement lies in the thought that God Arbitrarily xhooses either 1. to save some and damn others or, 2. A criteria by which this is determined (e.g., free will and faith in Christ). To me, any talk of arbitrariness misses the point–and actually minimizes the problem of man’s fall (which is ironic because we certainly do not believe in total depravity). Here is how (and I’m on my phone so I may have to response more later this morning):

        Something legitimately happened when man fell into sin. It’s not that God arbitrarily, as a result, chose a criteria by which man might be saved. In order to remedy the fall, something needed to legitimate happen: incarnation and death / resurrection. Without these two things man would not and could not be saved (we agree here). But the question of arbitrariness implies that there is a different way man could have been saved (without these things?). I don’t want to travel too far down that speculative road, so I’ll just stop there.

        Man needs healing. It’s like going to the doctor or therapist. They’ll help me with their medicine, I just have to get there.

        As a side note: Orthodox Christians understand the potter and clay reference as god’s light shining on men… Just like the sun shines on either mud (and makes it hard) or wax (and melt it). Same sun (shines on righteous and unrighteousness) different material. We believe, like Lewis, each choice turns you into either a heavenly or hellish creature. Into wax or mud.

        Lastly, I have a novelty question: how do you know if you’re the elect? Seems to me that every Calvinist believes they are. Historically, the Puritans believed that it could be seen who was elect based on prosperity: the prosperous were the elect. For this reason they worked hard to “prove” their election. Hence, the Puritan work ethic–seed of the prosperity gospel.

      2. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        I’m not sure you’re understanding my argument concerning arbitrariness. I’m not sure I understanding your point of “the question implies there is a different way man could have been saved?” Maybe I should ask this question in order to see if my argument addresses Orthodoxy (as I believe it does). What is the Orthodox interpretation of predestination?

        What I’ve said before is that there are three options it seems to me concerning predestination, 1) Unconditional election, 2) Conditional election based on foreseen faith, 3) It’s a mystery. I’ve argued that to say “God works in synergy with humanity (in the sense that humanity needs to cooperate with God’s grace in order to be saved)” is to already argue 2). That is, any understanding of synergy concerning salvation necessitates conditional election based on foreseen faith.

        In terms of potter and the clay, this goes back to my first question of the Orthodox understanding of predestination, how do the Orthodox handle “objects of mercy” and “objects of wrath-prepared for destruction”? Or of God “hardening whom he wills”? Saying Orthodox understand the passage to refer to “god’s light shining on men” does not address the non-elect, or put forth an understanding of predestination.

        With regards to election, the answer is the same as salvation. How do we know we have been saved? Well, we first point to Christ. as Paul says in Romans 10:9, ” if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Then we point to God’s work in our lives in sanctification, as John does in 1 John 2.

        “My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments . Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.”

        I personally don’t know the history of the Puritan work ethic concerning election, I’ve never understood how someone could be a Calvinist and yet believe their election was proved proved by economic work.

      3. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Concerning Romans 9, check this out (it’s a short series of podcasts but you can also read the text below): http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/pilgrims/romans_nine_-_part_1

        That is part one. Here is a link where you can find the rest of the series: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/pilgrims

        I cannot respond right now in length via this comment (hope to in a bit) but those podcasts explain a little of how we understand these passages. Not to mention why we believe Calvinism to be . . . erroneous. Thanks again for the article.

      4. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Another quick note before I respond: I didn’t realize that “the critique of Calvinist theology with the question “how do you know you are elect” gets a lot of play.

      5. Ben Cabe Avatar

        This will quite possibly be my last response.

        Arbitrariness, as you argue it, is based on God’s “criteria” for salvation: as if he chose that “saving faith” was the criteria by which man must be saved. We do not believe God arbitrarily chose a criteria—whether by electing persons to salvation or damnation, or choosing a “saving faith” criteria that requires free will. The remedy for the fall is the Incarnation and the Death / Resurrection. This is what leads to the “health of the person”—the healing of the person.

        But how is this applied to the believer? This is, perhaps, where the contention lies. We believe that man participates with God. But the argument of arbitrariness cannot be made here, because God did not arbitrarily choose a method by which to save man (whether unconditional or conditional election based on faith). Man’s fall necessitated a certain medicine: the incarnation and the death / resurrection—it was this that would heal mean. God provided us with the medicine (and does so) but we must work with Him.

        In order to make an argument for arbitrariness, one must conclude that God arbitrarily chose a method by which man must be saved. If, however, the fulfillment and salvation of man is only accomplished through the incarnation / death / resurrection, then an argument for arbitrariness cannot be made (this is just logic) because God did not arbitrarily choose a method.

        This, however, is not the main contention against Calvinism: the main contention is one of love. I’m sure you have heard all of these responses (and I’m sure someone else will comment here in more detail about love / ontology / necessity / etc so I’m not going to bother, as there is a pat response for everything. In the end, you’ll just have decide for yourself. I think you’re honestly look for God and the truth—he’ll lead you there if you remain open.

        However, I am quite disturbed by the Calvinist viewpoint. I will say, though, that my interaction with you and your reformed beliefs / tendencies is far more fruitful and constructive than most Calvinists I’ve spoken with. The unfortunate thing about this website (if I may say) is that, even though we attempt to have dialogue here in the comments, it will never replace face-to-face dialogue—which is always superior. I hope to have such dialogue in the future, as I believe we would get along wonderfully / have some great conversations. Ever in the area, drop by!

      6. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Insofar as God (is) life and man can only exist (in) God—because we are not autonomous or self-subsistent . . . yes. Because the way to union / communion with God needed to be fulfilled / restored. And this (required?) the Incarnation / Death / Burial / Resurrection. Does that (answer?) work?

        Life in Christ is a very real, tangible thing. A thing that cannot be accomplished by means of drug tripping (or other means). The restoration of man, also, is a very real, tangible thing. Something that could not be remedied with a mere command (without obliterating something. Like free will—which is necessary for love). Could God make a rock so large he couldn’t lift it? Etc.

        Ultimately, the real critique of Calvinism is, if he could have (saved everyone), why didn’t he? No need to respond to that question, George.

      7. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        I mean, the Calvinist response is right in the text. Romans 9:21, “Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use?” I understand the Orthodox have another interpretation of the passage, I just think that it is important to respond to your question, because it isn’t obvious to me God wants to save everyone in the scriptures.

      8. Ben Cabe Avatar

        God certainly was not obligated to save. He is the only one who is completely, existentially free. But that’s not what we were talking about. God, out of love, chose to save us. But in order to heal the human being, he had to go about our salvation in a certain way: by becoming a human being. He did not just wave his hand and say “be saved!” which is the real critique, in my opinion, of Calvinism. If he did save by predetermination, (as if by a wave of his hand) why didn’t he save all? I don’t buy the justice thing.

      9. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Thanks for your reply Ben, I think I’m grasping more and more that the Orthodox rejection of Protestantism has much to do with how Orthodox view soteriology. Protestants tend to view it primarily in terms of justification, whereas Orthodox view it primarily in terms of deification. Protestants (My) knee jerk to Orthodox discussions of salvation is to be like “wait, slow down, let’s talk about sinfulness and the gospel’s forgiveness of sin, reconciliation to the Father, and adoption as sons before we get to deification.” Orthodox (Ben) reaction to Protestant conversations of soteriology are “Dude, you’re missing the point. Salvation is about communion with God, not the depths of sin. Too much sin and righteousness talk neglects the beauty of the Incarnation and the fellowship with the Trinity that Christ’s salvation calls us to walk in.”

        I think this is really really valuable. Seriously, I thank God for these conversations, because I think they (in my opinion) show what our theologies emphasize and tend to neglect. It seems, in my mind, Orthodoxy doesn’t have a well-defined or well-emphasized doctrine of justification. And yet, I’m convicted that Reformed Protestantism doesn’t have a well-defined or well-emphasized doctrine of Incarnation and continued fellowship and union with the Godhead.

        So, here’s where I want to push you Ben. I’m not sure I understand the discussion of Incarnation/death/resurrection within your post. Certainly this is necessary for salvation, but how is this salvation applied to individuals? Well, the scriptures say saving faith by the power of the Holy Spirit. I quoted, Romans 10:9, ” if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.” Mere incarnation/death/resurrection doesn’t save humanity according to the scriptures, true faith and true repentance are necessary for the benefits and healing of Christ to begin.

        I still get the feeling you’re not understanding my discussion of arbitrariness. Maybe I’m not writing well. I listened to some of the podcast you sent me. The Orthodox guy (I’m gonna have to listen to more, I think these podcasts are a great resource) said that the Calvinist understanding of God “arbitrarily” elects certain people to salvation. I certainly don’t believe this. God is not arbitrary. My argument is to say that if one believes the Calvinist God to be arbitrary, then one has to believe that a synergistic God (any non-Calvinist God) that predestines is also arbitrary. That is the contention.

      10. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Thanks, George.

        I am not sure it is that the Orthodox do not have a well-rounded view of justification, just that we do not parse Justification and Sanctification; they are to sides of the same coin. Like said in previous conversations: when we are saved in Christ and to this communion we are saved from damnation. We aren’t worried about escaping damnation, which is the “negative side” of salvation, as much as we are longing for communion. As Saint Porphyrios said: “put me wherever your love would have me.”

        The point is, God does not arbitrarily set a criteria for salvation. “only God as a human person could save the human person” as John Behr put t. Therefore, anyone’s choice to follow Christ does not hearken to am arbitrary criteria set by God.

        Soteriology is a huge difference. Which is fascinating to me because most different Christian traditions vary on what it means to be, or how to become, saved. So who is right? That single verse for Romans doesn’t cut it for me. Consider 1 Cor 10-12 and the Paul’s stress on Baptism and the Eucharist. (1 Cor 10:1-5 speaks about the typology of Moses and the Israelites, their baptism and then sustenance through drinking from the Rock). And then look at 1 Cor 12:13–The church is one body because of our baptism, thereby allowing us to drink into one spirit. Then look back at Chapter 10:16-17 where Paul literally makes the connection that we are one because we partake of the one bread and one cup, the body and blood of Christ.

        Also 1 Peter 3:21 where Peter notes that “baptism saves.” And also Colossians 2:11 where Paul says that we have a circumcision not made with hands, putting off the body of sins of the flesh, the circumsision of Christ (baptism). Then look at James 2:14-17 where he asks if faith can save a man. He concluded by saying faith without works is dead.

      11. Ben Cabe Avatar

        (sorry for the sloppiness of my response, I’m on my phone and it messed up so I had to post it or lose it. I am not done 🙂

      12. Ben Cabe Avatar

        But i would like to point out one nuance: the incarnation / death / burial / resurrection did accomplish, at least, one thing by itself: the resurrection. Which is a gift to all of humankind. Everyone will be raised from the dead.

      13. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I would also not say that the Orthodox neglect talk about sin / sinfulness etc. This debate can only be understood (as best as it can) within the Orthodox Church. I really think you would like readingore about the Orthodox. Out of curiosity, how many books do you have the chance to read a year? I would recommend spending a portion of time away from what you normally read do read the riches of Orthodox understanding. I will make book suggestions if you’re interested.

      14. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, I’m with you on that. I guess I’m speaking (about justification and deification differences) primarily on the basis of the conversations we’ve had. I’m not saying that the Orthodox don’t believe in salvation from sin or that Reformed don’t believe in sanctification, only that one tends to emphasize and develop one more than the other. I think that’s probably true if we are any indication of our respective traditions. I was thinking of reading the IVP book you quote something like “introduction to orthodox theology.” I think i may pick that up soon. I’m starting to study the reformation, and then I’m gonna work back to early church. I think I’ll read orthodox theology stuff around when I start studying that. Please, I’m up for suggestions, I thought the IVP book was good since it was suggested by you 😉

      15. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Church Fathers

      16. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, I’m of course going to get around to that haha. Maybe not to that extent ha, over a lifetime I’d hope

      17. Ben Cabe Avatar

        a few other suggestions. But really depends what you want to read

      18. Ben Cabe Avatar

        A few other suggestions: mostly introductory

      19. Chris Cam Smith Avatar

        I just ordered that book, Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology by Andrew Louth. It’s really good. I like The Orthodox Way by Kallistos Ware too. Both are really good but not too dense.

      20. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Interesting you say that. Gift even to those raised to everlasting death? That’s an interesting perspective.

      21. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        I mean, I think “justified by faith and not works of the law” is a pretty established Pauline (and from Christ as well) doctrine. Baptism and ecclesiology are certainly tied to this justification, but not as closely as you suggest. Also, I think if you believe that what James is saying in ch. 2 is that works is necessary to justify in the present, then I think that would contradict Paul, something we wouldn’t want to do. We can certainly discuss this more another time, I also wish that we would be able to have more conversations in person, unfortunately we are separated by many miles.

        Maybe, if you’d like to keep writing on this, help me understand your critique of “God does not arbitrarily set a criteria for salvation.” I’m not sure what you are critiquing. Certainly, faith is necessary for salvation, that seems to be clear from Paul and Christ. What are you disagreeing with on this?

      22. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I guess what I am saying is in order to make the argument that God is arbitrary in our view of salvation, you have to say that God set a criteria (arbitrarily) by which he judges who is saved. We don’t believe that. He healed us by becoming human and entreats us to come to him out of love. This probably doesn’t make Jr any clearer though

      23. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Ah. Thank you for clarifying. It seems you believe “coming to him out of love” is something of a criteria for healing… It is this synergistic understanding of salvation that results in the “arbitrariness” I’ve argued in my article.

      24. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Certainly there is something(s) that must happen in order for salvation. But its not arbitrary because God doesn’t arbitrarily choose the criteria AKA what man must do to be saved.

      25. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Hope you guys don’t mind me jumping in with this, from Ott’s fundamentals of catholic dogma (that James/Paul contrast is near and dear to me journey to Catholicism):

        “When St. Paul teaches that we are saved by faith without the works of the Law (Rom. 3:28)…he understands by faith, living faith, active through love (Gal. 5:6); by works of the law he means the works of the law of the Old Testament, for example, circumcision; by justification, the inner purification and sanctification of the non-Christian sinner by the acceptance of the Christian Faith. When St. James, in apparent contradiction to this, teaches that we are justified by works, not merely by faith (James 2:24)…he understands by faith, dead faith (James 2:17; Mt. 7:21); by works, the good works proceeding from Christian Faith; by justification, the declaration of the righteousness of the Christian before the judgment seat of God.”

        Super important to establish Paul’s audience in the letter to the Roman church(es), a city with a huge Jewish population although those Jews had recently fallen out of favor and hence an influx into the Christian community (which was never completely separated from the synagogue, in the first place), and hence the issue of following the old law. This “law” is NOT the same as James’s law of liberty, or the moral imperatives of Scripture, but involves ceremonies + traditions, etc.

        Also, all Scripture is inspired, no? So Paul holds no special place above James, unless you want to go Luther’s route (which he repented of later in life) and call James an “epistle of straw.”
        [[never understood how Lutherans have a founder willing to say this, and yet end up today with such a strong sense of Biblical inerrancy…]]

      26. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yes. I believe that I believe that one hundred percent. Justification by faith leads necessarily to the obedience of faith, to sanctification and glorification. Absolutely.
        I’m not a hundred percent convinced that everytime Paul speaks of “the law” he means Jewish distinctions and not the moral law. Something that troubles me to this day about interpreting the Bible.

  2. George Aldhizer Avatar
    George Aldhizer

    Haha, I thought about putting the potter and clay into the article. Decided against it, didn’t want to stack the deck too much in favor of Calvinism 😉

    So, for William Lane Craig, he believes that God’s uses his knowledge of counterfactuals of creaturely freedom to order a world in which there is “an optimal balance between saved and unsaved.” He also puts forth a proposition, that of “transworld damnation,” that maybe only the persons in this world that exist who spurn God’s offering of grace would’ve spurned it in any feasible world for God to create. The people who do not hear the gospel in this world (and are damned) would have rejected it EVEN IF they had heard it. I find that idea preposterous precisely if Molinism is true. If Molinism is true, then CERTAINLY God could order the contingencies in such a way that anyone could trust in Christ. So, no, I don’t think WLC argues that God gives people the *best* opportunity to respond to grace, he believes based off his molinist understanding of soteriological providence that God offers grace to everyone, though knowing that those who don’t even hear the gospel of God’s grace would not have responded to it if they had heard it.

    What I am saying, in response to Craig, is that transworld damnation is not true. And if it is not true, then the molinist conception of predestination commits itself to the “same” position that Calvinists take, namely that God elects some to salvation and others he leaves to damnation. God, in the molinist account (assuming transworld damnation is not true), can create a world in which most any person can be created with contingencies such that they could be either saved or damned, and it is up to God to determine these contingencies.

    http://www.reasonablefaith.org/middle-knowledge-and-christian-exclusivism

    Ugh, and I used to believe in this stuff wholeheartedly. It seems to make so much philosophical sense! But, I find it pretty silly these days, especially given my Calvinism. I actually, though, probably would commit myself to a Molinist account of providence, but not predestination. That is, I don’t believe in determinism like many Calvinists have.

    What did you think of my argument in the article Chris? Would be curious to hear your perspective.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      Thanks for your engagement with the article’s argument Chris. SOME PEOPLE in this room only like to hate on Calvinism(ists) haha (the two Bens ha).

      Yeah, I believe I had read that q&a in the past. I’m with you on middle knowledge’s cosmic vertigo haha. Craig says, “Perhaps you’re asking whether there are feasible worlds in which that person is saved. Molinism is neutral on that question. The Molinist could hold that that person is unsaved in every feasible world in which he exists, but that is not inherent to Molinism.”

      I think this is the sticking point. I think Molinism and its insights preclude transworld damnation. Also I think it precludes the “libertarian free will” Craig cites as the reason for conversation. Let me explain.

      If, as molinism recognizes, God could’ve created a different world with George placed in different circumstances, then God could’ve created George with varying soteriological results. Just think of placing those in this world who never hear the gospel into situations in which they do. It seems to me that transworld damnation is precluded precisely because molinists believe that different circumstances can produce different results. Again, as I argue (and I believe the questioner is trying to figure out), this allows for God to destine people to salvation based on their circumstances. I’m not equating calvinism to molinism, I do think that molinism is different in that it allows for man to “have its destiny in its hands” in some respect, but not in the pure way that Craig supposes.

      And this gets to the critique of libertarianism as Craig utilizes it. Craig’s molinism, as I’ve just said, discusses varying circumstances producing varying results. It seems that there is no such thing as a pure “libertarian” will in such circumstances, for our choices are in some sense bound by our circumstances. Just think again of those who never hear the gospel, faith is literally unable to them, for faith comes by preaching Paul says in Romans. If circumstances allow for differing results, then the pure freedom that Craig says produces salvation is just not true. Plus, I think that it just doesn’t go with common sense notions of how our surroundings influence our decisions, in which I think Craig’s molinism actually disallows this pure freedom.

  3. Benjamin Winter Avatar
    Benjamin Winter

    Thanks for this well-researched post! I’m going to echo some of Ben’s comments and add a few of my own.

    Let’s start with Scripture. A few verses before Rom 8:30 we find the following: “We know that all things work together for good for those who love God, who are called according to his purpose.” Here, I see both human and divine elements in an interplay with one another. Those who are called love God. Those whom God calls love God. These two statements mean the same thing, but I prefer the active language of the second. Doubtless, the love of God is prior to human love–and indeed prior to the creation of the cosmos. But does this fact make human love unnecessary in the communal and individual drama of salvation? Far from it! I worry, though, that focusing too heavily on God’s choice at the expense of human freedom leads to 1) a negative view of human nature, and 2) a dangerous mental activity of putting God into a box.

    With regard to #1, I’d like to address your claim that “this analysis should pull all believers into worship of the God who has chosen to bestow the riches of his grace upon us, his predestined elect.” While I certainly admire and approve of the movement from theology to worship, I wonder how one avoids becoming arrogant, or falsely secure, given this standpoint? It seems to me that focusing only on God’s election leaves humanity as an ugly lump of clay to be called forth by God, rather than as a beautiful created marred by sin but meant to be perfected. I’m not saying that human nature needs no outside intervention in order to be saved. I am saying that, taking Gen 9:6 seriously, there is something intrinsic to humanity that is good, that is dignified, that reflects God in this world. This “something” is what grows to perfection in the Christian life through the workings of grace. I would be comfortable with saying that grace is “the source of every saving good.” Grace involves a true interaction between God and humanity, an interaction consummated in and through the mystery of the God-man. But your predication of “faith, holiness, and the other saving gifts” to election seems to imply that human nature has nothing to offer back to God. In your response to Ben, below, you state that “we are predestined not merely out of sin but into Christ’s righteousness and into sanctification.” This is certainly a start… =)

    With regard to #2, I think it is paramount to acknowledge that God’s judgments are inscrutable when it comes to election. It is certainly not our place as humans to create definitive criteria (particularly when said criteria are applied in judgment of others, rather than in humble self-examination) that limit God’s love OR God’s justice. We know God possesses both of these attributes. It is an affront to the justice of God to say that God does not give everyone a chance to accept God, to spend eternity with God, to become re-incorporated into the divine life from which we all once came. It is an affront to the love of God to say that God CANNOT save x person, or to state that God’s love needs the human will in order to be effective. The Catholic position that God calls all to be saved, and that the only people who are not saved are those who forcibly reject God, is the only one that I find true to the intricacies of this debate. God does not will anyone to be damned. Hence, my biggest problem with your article is the statement “Though God could’ve created a world in which sin reigned until death swallowed us whole…” How could a God who is Goodness itself, whose creative act is an overflow of that Goodness into a good cosmos, do something like this? God cannot contradict God’s self, there is no “shadow of change” (Jas 1:17) in God. I don’t think you were implying that God is capable of instigating an evil plan in which God’s creation suffers and dies with no redemption?

    Other comments:

    1) I would have liked to see a bit more on defending what you see as the Reformed understanding of predestination. I think trying to show that other views are susceptible to the same issues as the Reformed understanding is admirable (and certainly true, if one believes in a core set of issues that must be addressed when discussing predestination), but really doesn’t “clear up” any misconceptions I had personally about the Reformed position in se.

    2) As you note in footnote 1, the Catholic position on predestination is not a dogma, and the two views you mention (Thomism and Molinism) merely emphasize different aspects of the God/humanity relationship outlined in Rom 8:28 and throughout Scripture. They do not, however, claim to be exclusively true in the face of the other. Although the CCC appears to embrace the Molinistic view that favors human agency in the explanation, you have to keep in mind that for Catholics even the human response to grace is only possible because of grace (given by the Holy Spirit in the assent of faith). For example, this Augustine quote also from the CCC [2001]: “Indeed we also work, but we are only collaborating with God who works, for his mercy has gone before us. It has gone before us so that we may be healed, and follows us so that once healed, we may be given life; it goes before us so that we may be called, and follows us so that we may be glorified; it goes before us so that we may live devoutly, and follows us so that we may always live with God: for without him we can do nothing.” So although people may read a Molinistic tenor into the CCC, I don’t think one can go as far as your “…decidedly points” comment in footnote 1.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      I guess, to start my reply, I’d like to note that my purpose in writing this article had little to do with defending a Reformed view of predestination. I was really hoping that I could get some engagement from you concerning the main thrust of my argument, namely that the Catechism’s view of predestination falls into the same “argument of arbitrariness” that Reformed theology does. Do you believe that my argument is true? I think that, if so, it means a lot for any non-Calvinistic theology, for God has to be seen as one who creates people with the foreknowledge to save some and not others.

      As for your bit on Thomism and Molinism, I do believe that they are “exclusively true in the face of the other.” Aquinas agrees with Augustine in the passage I quoted that God draws some and not others. That certainly does not agree with the Catechism.

      As for your two points. On the first, again, my article is not trying to do too much. It is centered on election and predestination, not consequent sanctification, etc. Certainly, we are called forth by God into perfection, growing in grace, dare I say deification. I did not mean to move into these subsequent realities that election calls us into. I think, in response, that we brought from death to life, from an “ugly lump of clay” that is “dead in sin” and into the marvelous riches of God’s grace in Christ. I mean, this is the language of the scriptures in terms of Romans 9 (mercy upon lumps of clay) and Ephesians 2 (being dead in trespasses and sins, being raised to new life in Christ). I don’t think you should be uncomfortable at my worship at the end of the article, this move from “death” to “life” has to be emphasized in Christian worship. Certainly, grace is the start of every good. And grace bestowed upon us is the start of our good works.

      I think I may write an article on your statement “it is an affront to God’s justice to say that God does not give everyone an opportunity to accept God.” Aquinas, it seems, would disagree. God’s justice is displayed in “vessels of wrath” as Paul describes. It seems that many Christians believe that God is BOUND to display mercy. Romans 9 makes it clear that God can have mercy on whomever he wants, and can display his wrath on whomever he wants. God could’ve justly declared the world sinful and dead, and done nothing to redeem it. He could have done that! That would not mean that God is not good, certainly not. Grace is a free gift, not something God is bound to give. That’s why worship is so essential is response to salvation! God could’ve decided to leave us in our sin, instead he sent his son to reconcile in his very body humanity and divinity, to die on a cross as a propitiation for the wrath God justly has upon sin, and to raise victorious over sin and death such that salvation, deification, and glorification would result for the elect. What beautiful good news for us, called by God into his grace.

      1. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I will attempt to respond to your reply to me a little later. Reading this comment “God could’ve justly declared the world sinful and dead, and done nothing to redeem it. He could have done that! ” my initial thought was, does this leave us with a kind of Euthyphro dilemma?

      2. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Maybe you could write an article on that point? I feel that is a sticking point, the freedom of God to justly condemn a sinful world. Is God free to not send a son, to justly leave a world in its sin?

      3. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Certainly God could have, but would he. His love wouldn’t allow him to (don’t take that as a literal restriction of freedom). Once again, a euthyohro delimma. He certainly can, but he wont. God is love. it is not a question of justice, its a question of love

      4. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, I think Calvinists believe that mercy is not a necessary part of God’s nature. Mercy and salvific love are not bound to God in a way that goodness and justice are. God is not bound to show mercy to sinners deserving his wrath.

      5. Ben Cabe Avatar

        The Apostle John tells us that God is love. Read 1 Corinthians 13. Regardless of whether or not one is deserving or wrath, how would a God who is love respond according to what Paul tells us about love in 1 Cor 13…

      6. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Just curious, I’m not trying to respond with pet answers to stay defended. I’m just interested how your view handles such things as “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” I think God’s love is different towards his elect than the non-elect. A view the Jesus of the Gospel of John seems to proclaim throughout (“My sheep hear my voice, and I will not lose a single one of them.”)

      7. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I think there is something very interesting here. In my opinion, it is not God’s love that changes but rather how is love is experienced. God does not change. I believe we have spoken about this a little before: God’s love is experienced as love, joy, and peace to those who love him and as fire to those who hate him (even in the depths, are you there). That kind of thing: “God does not show favoritism, etc”. It can’t just be a single verse taken out of context that we point to. I think that podcast will touch on that verse. Essentially, what we must understand is that Romans 9 is not talking about individuals, but nations. And hyperbolic language (including that quote) is utilized. This is a fairly well accepted fact (accept for in the Calvinist view). But if we look at the context (Beginning of Romans 9), Paul is talking to his countryman, men of his own flesh . . . The Jews . . . Israel . . . etc. (sorry this is all fragmented. I have to get to work:). Interpretation of scripture. Man. I remember speaking with a Mormon who was trying to convince me that God the Father had a physical body because it references Jesus sitting at the “right hand” of the father. We must be careful when we employ scripture . . .

        That is to say, God is love. I would think it quite erroneous to say that he “loves differently”. But I can see what you’re saying. It comes down to, also, a different understanding of original sin. (This is different from both Roman Catholic and Protestants). Orthodox do not understand “Original Sin” as “Guilt” but rather as a fractured human nature. We are only guilty of our own sins, not born guilty (more on this in a future post). But where is the culpability of the damned person in the Reformed view?

        Now, on justice. What is “the justice of God” referencing? Let us take an absurd example. Suppose there is a village where all obeyed the law. The king, however, decided to show his mercy and wrath by taking some into his palace and by publicly torturing others. Is this justice? This seems absurd. Of course we cannot apply human examples to God but we must remember that, even in scripture when justice is referred to, it is an analogy. Is God just? Yes. But to affirm that he is love and he chooses, arbitrarily, to justly condemn / damn before mankind was created, is absurd. What kind of God is that.? The question does not become “does God exist” but rather “is God good? Does he love me?” This is the question that most people struggle with. The answer is yes, he is good. yes, he does love you.

        But does he love everyone? Yes. In the same way? Yes. Does he long for them to be saved? Yes. Is he there, waiting like the Father in the parable of the Prodigal son? Yes. Really fragmented, sorry.

      8. Ben Cabe Avatar

        We may just need to give this conversation a few years. I am not sure I’ll respond much more. We’re speaking around one another.

      9. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        I’ve learned a lot from everyone here, especially since I have never had this conversation before in any depth. But yes I do agree that there must be a time to sit back and begin reflection, as new experiences and growth will doubtless dictate a new perspective in years to come…

      10. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, we’ve got time to continue. I think I’m just scratching the surface on the disagreements and unities across traditions. I think I’m learning that the Orthodox have different categories of thought than maybe the West does. I’ve heard that said before, and maybe this is one instance where the differences pop up.

      11. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Hey Ben, I think you are replying to me, here? Too bad this thread has become so jarbled. Even if you were not, I still think that your comments provide an important and necessary “corrective” to my paragraph beginning “Short answer on Rom 9,” above. To clarify, I wasn’t trying to say that God changed (perish the thought), but to show the need for non-literal exegetical methods to deal with much of the Old Testament, with the details of the history described by Paul in Rom 9. I am aware of the solution of viewing Israel as a monotheistic society and thus seeing their killing of the other nations as justified, since they received orders directly from God. I also understand that God can and does indeed work through violence (his Son’s death being the prime example). However, Israel did not always perfectly follow God’s orders (really!), and many of their practices that appear to be sanctioned, or at least allowed, by God are now anathema to the Christian life (polygamy/concubinage is one such practice). I also wrote this paragraph to try and account for the different ways humanity has related to the divine (e.g. old vs new covenants). Here’s a quote from Bonaventure on this, who draws from Augustine:

        By faith we understand that the world was fashioned by the Word of God; by faith we believe that the periods of the three laws—of nature, of the scriptures, and of grace, followed one another and have flowed on in the most orderly way; by faith we believe that the world must come to an end in the final judgment. -Itinerarium 1.12 (trans. Philotheus Boehner [Indianapolis, IN: Hackett, 1956], p. 8.

        There is development in the salvation economy, and that development has been finalized in the advent of Christ. Saint John Paul II says: “Christ, the Redeemer of the world, is the one who penetrated in a unique unrepeatable way into the mystery of man and entered his ‘heart.’ Rightly therefore does the Second Vatican Council teach: ‘The truth is that only in the mystery of the Incarnate Word does the mystery of man take on light.’” (Redemptor Hominis 8)

        I wanted to add a quote here from Balthasar’s Love Alone is Credible on the newness of Christ’s message, but unfortunately a friend is borrowing the text and its not full-text online.

        Finally, here are some lecture notes from one of my favorite teachers, Kevin Hughes, as he talks about appropriating insights of process theologians:

        “To think that my choice can go up against God’s choice in a mano a mano way is to shrink God down to a creature. If I have to choose between me and God, then I haven’t understood God rightly. Judas is the focal point for this mystery: freedom and responsibility are part and parcel to what it means to be a human being. This image is helpful: God is like a lure beckoning us into the future, and we’re walking toward God, and God is walking backward, laying out possibilities for us. We make a choice, then God says ‘OK, let me lay out these choices for you here.’ Those possibilities are offered, in a sense, as gifts. There are many choices, and it’s not equivalent to a person being ‘stringed along.’ Those who seek ultimate human autonomy would say ‘This is not real freedom, because the possibilities are limited.’ But this is just a way to imagine what it would look like from our perspective, in time. God is eternal—everything is now for God.”

        Oh one more thing, your comments on guilt are spot on. Reminded me of this great podcast transcription my Orthodox cousin sent me a few years ago: http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts/freeman/the_death_of_the_moral_man

      12. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Actually, I think I was attempting to respond to George. I just noticed something, also. By the person’s name it has a little arrow and then the person’s name that they’re responding to. Thanks for your involvement, btw!

      13. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Since we’re having a “response bonanza” right now, I figured I’d briefly address your thoughts. Again, I always appreciate the chance to share what I think and to learn from others–your article has clearly catalyzed this excellent discussion so kudos to you for that! In fact, I have never had a discussion on this topic in detail before, despite its clear importance when it comes to (sad!) divisions between members of Christ’s body at this point in time.

        So, first, I was trying to show that the Catechism doesn’t take a “hard and fast” Molinist stance, and that this is a purposeful choice given that any certain “strand” of predestination is not dogma for Catholics to believe. The quote from CCC 600 about God including man’s free response to grace in his plan of predestination is, of course, related to the foreseen faith of individuals (as you point out). And yet how does the Catechism define faith? Faith is an act of moving OUTSIDE the self, an act of surrender to something higher (not a brazen act of willing, for example). “By faith, man completely submits his intellect and his will to God. With his whole being man gives his assent to God the revealer. Sacred Scripture calls this human response to God, the author of revelation, ‘the obedience of faith.’” (CCC 143) Since no one can say Christ is Lord without the Holy Spirit, the content of faith’s assent to God (belief) is only possible because of God’s GIFT. And yet CCC 154 sums up: “Believing is possible only by grace and the interior helps of the Holy Spirit. But it is no less true that believing is an authentically human act.” Gah, my mind is always blown by this whole section!!

        Basically in sum here: it’s not worthwhile to cherry-pick CCC 600 (which doesn’t even define anything dogmatically) and abstract it from the context of the whole rest of the Catholic faith and the rest of the book, wherein the drama between man and God is always, always inter-twined (as is made known by the humanity and divinity of Christ himself). That’s what I was trying to get at in my post. Hence Thomism and Molinism can be seen as viewing the issue either in light of God’s work or in light of man’s work. In my opinion both are necessary, and the reason both can be true is because predestination is indeed a mystery, (thankfully) we are not God and cannot know with certainty every specific aspect of God’s decisions.

        On to another of your comments. I’m writing my article for Friday on a similar topic, but if God truly wants all to be saved, as attested to in Scripture (1 Tim and 2 Pet), then it is an affront to the justice of this salvific intent if there are creatures who have no possible way of being saved. Its also and perhaps more an affront to God’s omnipotence: who are we to say God CAN’T have what God wants?

        Short answer on Rom 9: Paul is talking about HISTORICAL CIRCUMSTANCES, from which are derived general principles about the inscrutability and rightness of God’s judgments. We all know wack things happened in the Old Testament. A primary task of the early church fathers was to show just how the heck the OT God could be the same as the NT God. God allows for horrible destruction and violence in the OT. But things changed. The God of salvation history reaches out to humanity (in covenants, as you so often and rightly mention!) by giving different gifts in different time periods (old testament gifts, for example, are different than new testament gifts–types of sacraments come to mind). Christ’s religion is inherently non-violent, Christ gave the gift of “turning the other cheek” to the world. So ultimately, I believe we have to do some deep exegesis (moral, allegorical, and/or tropological) to understand these difficult passages, nay, these difficult PRACTICES OF GOD in the OT which Paul alludes to, and to thus realize the harmony of Christ’s message of love that pervades the entire Scriptures and the entire salvation economy. Phew had no idea my response would be this long!

      14. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Addendum apropos my remarks on faith, assent, and the human will: Mary, not just Christ, is central to why Catholics can believe this stuff about an interplay between God and humanity when it comes to salvation/election. Mary is that completely HUMAN being who said “yes” to God in a perfect way, redeemed as she was by the future merits of Christ. She birthed God into this world….through her body…. Of course what Mary did totally flies in the face of a total depravity anthropology, since Mary is ultimately wicked (“saved Pete and unsaved Pete are both wicked”) in this view and just another “vessel of wrath.” Yet as I mention here, even Mary’s perfection, her immaculate conception, is a result of prevenient Grace. So in Mary we have the perfect conjunction of God’s undeserved favor (God sanctifies her in a special way by freeing her from original sin) and humanity’s assent of the will (“Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word”), and BOTH are necessary for the birth of Christ not only into this world as a physical person but into our hearts today =) =)

      15. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        I think I’d like to hear more on Catholic’s understanding of original sin. Protestants don’t really develop the doctrine with regards to Mary, or much else besides soteriology. As an aside, I think you mean “children of wrath,” as Paul says all of us are until saved by grace through faith (Eph. 2:3-5). Certainly, Mary would be considered one of the elect, not destined as a vessel of wrath, by no means. She was chosen by God to be the mother of God.

      16. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Thanks. =) Typing fast got the better of me, and I also believe (and this is a complement to you) that you’ve been more-recently meditating on Paul’s letters, or at least doing so for longer and in greater depth, than myself. Always good to be called back to where it all began, thank you for this encouragement. I may indeed write an article on original sin and Catholicism. In fact though, I may treat it when I continue the series on Grace and Catholicism.

      17. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, I’m really looking forward to your next article. Also, maybe you could write an article on your understanding of the development of the scriptures. Certainly one thing that intrigues me that I am not used to as a Protestant is doing sacramental typology of the OT. Certainly, seeing Christ in the scriptures is something I’m used to hearing, but not the Eucharist (much less Marian typology that I’ve heard from Ben).

        Well, I think you’ve said that CCC 600 is emblematic of the synergism that the Catechism believes. And that necessitates predestination based on foreseen faith as I believe you recognize. And that contradicts Aquinas it seems to me. So, that’s all I’m arguing, not trying to cherry pick and develop an entire Catholic systematics based on one part, but to extract principles on which the Catechism is based.

      18. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Awesome suggestion. Because you pushed me in that direction (thank you!) I’ve thought of 2-3 articles that could a fall under that general heading.

        To paragraph 2: I see where you are coming from, now. Just because I personally don’t see the contrast as an issue does not mean it’s not there =) The comments I made with my friend Charlie on the facebook post of this article are relevant here as well:

        Charlie Johnson I wish people would acknowledge that both (the late) Augustine and Thomas Aquinas taught unconditional election. Also, there was a significant group of Reformed theologians who affirmed that God, in some sense, has a universal salvific will. See Amyraldianism and “the free offer of the gospel.”

        Charlie Johnson In fact, there are several medieval precedents for Calvin’s view of unconditional election: Gottschalk, John Wyclif, Thomas Bradwardine, Gregory of Rimini. Oh, and let’s not forget Luther articulated it before Calvin. What Calvin adds is the doctrine that the state of grace can never be lost.

        Benjamin Winter Glad you add this here, Charlie. Of course you could also add on the site as well. I’m going to reference you in a few weeks when I continue my series on grace and Catholicism (your quote from our facebook chat on merit and grace as opposed to grace and ‘works’), so you won’t be a stranger.

        To your comments, I definitely don’t have a problem acknowledging this, and its very helpful to know the precedent for the “unconditional” view, and to know exactly what Calvin contributed. With regard to the content of the question, it remains a mystery (to me, at least) exactly how the drama of election plays out. The Church has not chosen to define predestination as a dogma, hence I’m not concerned that there is discord between the tradition you outline above and the affirmation of a more “conditional” standpoint. These “standpoints,” to me, are simply pieces of a larger puzzle of how God relates to humanity–and I refuse to accept an “all or nothing” answer when it comes to election, grace, or really any aspect of that God-man relationship. God’s destiny is tied to that of man, what an aweful truth

        Charlie Johnson What I find so interesting about unconditional election is that both Augustine and Calvin argue for it on empirical as well as theological grounds. Each is determined not to ignore the uncomfortable realities he sees around him. As opposed to some form…See More

        Benjamin Winter I love this approach, Charlie. It’s important to return to the problem of evil and suffering in order to ground the debate

        Benjamin Winter I will also ponder your closing statement, I have ideas for responses to both options you (correctly, I think) provide, but am awaiting further materialization

  4. Micah Carlson Avatar
    Micah Carlson

    Oh dear…modal logic. You’re having a great time browsing mind-numbing simplicity on Facebook and then WHAM! Smacked in the face with a counterfactual. Bound to ruin anyone’s day. Ok, kidding.

    But seriously, counterfactuals are (…IF they are…) goofy little things (…if they ARE things…). I do not have a very solid understanding of modal logic, and I have suspicions that not many people (if any) actually do. And though I wouldn’t mind talking about how many possible fat men there are standing in your doorway (and whether the fat one with the cigar is the same as the one wearing a tie), I don’t think that’s really where you are wanting to go.

    It is relevant, however, because it seems to me that your entire argument presupposes the idea that God “could have done otherwise,” when it comes to His action in creation and salvation. So you ask us to accept that “God could’ve created a world other than this world.” At first glance this seems harmless, but is it actually true? Beyond even truth and falsehood, what does it even mean to say that God “could have” created some other universe than this one?

    Let’s talk about a specific person, Pete. Assume Pete is, in this universe (the one that actually exists) one of the “elect.” Now, to say that God could have chosen not to save Pete in modal terms, we would say that “there is some near-by possible world in which God creates a universe in which Pete is not saved.”

    Now, the distance between possible words and our own is “calculated” (haha) by the number of things in the possible world which are different from our own. So, perhaps one of the nearest possible worlds to us is the world in which every subatomic particle is following the exact same trajectory as it actually does in our own, with the exception that the penny sitting in front of me on my desk right now is heads up instead of tails up. A more distant possible world would be the possible world where, lets say, I am actually a woman, but all other things remain equal. Further still, there is the possible world where none of us exist, but people exactly opposite us in personality exist in our place. Then we have (possible?) worlds where the laws of physics are different, then impossible worlds, etc, etc. So, the question becomes, in the nearest possible world in which Pete is damned to hell, what is different?

    Well, the nearest possible worlds where Pete is damned are most likely going to be worlds where Pete is actually an evil man. But these will not help us, because the original claim was that God “could have” chosen to damn the Pete we all know and love, not some evil version of him. Furthermore, so long as all the possible worlds where Pete is damned are also worlds where he is an evil man, it looks like Pete’s choice to be evil is what is damning him, not an arbitrary God. And there is the rub for Christians. The nearest possible world in which the same Pete (who is actually saved in our world) is damned is a world with a different God altogether. Something in God’s decision process would have to have changed.

    Of course, most of us do not believe it is possible for God to change (I mean, the Bible tells me so). So if it is not possible for God to change, the nearest “possible” world where he damns Pete is actually an impossible one. That is to say, God could not have done otherwise than to save Pete, because of who God is and who Pete is. God’s plan is perfect, so any change or variation would be a corruption. His inability to choose to damn our beloved Pete is not a weakness, but a demonstration of His perfection.

    One more example very quickly, based on anthropology rather than theology. God is love. The Law of God was given man so that man might learn to be holy as God is holy, and Jesus says that the entire Law is summed up in Love. Paul also says that the chief end of man (or, the greatest gift, if you will) is to love. So what does it mean to say that man is made “in the Image of God”? I do not think it is unreasonable to induce that part of what this Image in man is is the fundamental ability to love. Certainly, many Christians do believe this. I am one of them. One result of this belief is that the ability to love is by definition part of what it means to be human (unless you can be human, and nevertheless NOT contain the Image of God). But love cannot be coerced. Someone “forced” to love another does not really love them. So, here again, God could not “force” or “predestine” a human to love Him against their will, because in so doing He would be contradicting what they are. It is very much, as Chris intoned, like the question of whether God could create a rock so big that He couldn’t lift it, or make a circular square–all of these things are nonentities, contradictions, and folly. It is no weakness of God’s to be unable to accomplish them.

    1. Benjamin Winter Avatar
      Benjamin Winter

      “Love” this post 😉

      1. Micah Carlson Avatar
        Micah Carlson

        🙂

    2. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      Thanks for your detailed response to my argument, very refreshing take. I think a couple of quick things. First, I agree with the entirety of your last paragraph. I don’t believe God predestines anyone against their will, or forces anyone to love him. I also believe part of what it means to be made in God’s image is to be able to love. Read my discussion of the Reformed understanding of predestination to understand how freedom comes into play in Reformed discussions of salvation.

      I’m not understanding the train of thought in your response. Let me see if my reaction to it sticks in some way. First, saved Pete and unsaved Pete are both wicked, in my understanding of how people are saved. We are all wicked, and we take on Christ’s righteousness in salvation. Saved and unsaved Pete in different possible worlds would not be distinguished by their wicked or not-wicked state. You say, “Pete’s damnation is by his choice, not God’s.” I understand that point, but what I am emphasizing is that God’s placing of us in circumstances affect our choices far more than we tend to recognize (imagine those that never hear the gospel).

      You say, “God could not have done otherwise than to save Pete, because of who God is and who Pete is.” I’m arguing that Pete could very well be different based off his circumstances, an insight Molinism rightly recognizes (or I believe should recognize based off its presuppositions). These circumstances are such that they can change the soteriological implications of Pete’s life (think if Pete were born in a place without hearing the gospel). So, I’m not sure there is an implication of “God being different” in this other circumstance. I also believe I’m reading in your response that Pete would be saved in any world God placed him in, a belief that I have a hard time believing about myself. Hence, my worship at a God who would elect me, chief of sinners, either through Molinist election or unconditional election.

      I hope this is somewhat on track on your argument.

      1. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Butting in again with a clarification question: what exactly is the ontological status of these “circumstances” you mention in the article and here? It seems you are introducing some kind of third variable into this whole equation that is both not God and not human. If this is the case, how are you avoiding the fact that this variable then becomes more powerful than God in determining things like the salvation of a human being?

      2. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, it’s interesting. I feel like I’m spending a lot of time arguing for something I don’t really believe in at all. In fact, I think the Molinist view of predestination (or any predestination based on foreseen faith) is man-centered, God’s sovereignty in salvation being predicated on humanity’s will. I find that pretty problematic in my view. (Of course, I know everyone and their mother on this blog disagrees with this awful Calvinism haha, maybe that’s why the comment section of a Calvinist is so fun, because it’s a dangerous minority view ha)

        So, as for the ontological status of counterfactuals, I’ll leave that to the philosophers that really believe and invest in the stuff (William Lane Craig and Thomas Flint come to mind). And, as I’ve argued, it seems that the Catechism comes down on the side of Molina in terms of predestination, so it seems that would be a problem for the Catholic to figure out.

      3. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Nice response. Well you certainly bear up well being the minority–we are all learning from you!

      4. Micah Carlson Avatar
        Micah Carlson

        George, you definitely have my interest regarding a Reformed understanding of salvation which does not have God predestining people into salvation against their will. I must admit, having been raised in a Reformed Baptist church (which, as I have come to learn in my later years, is something of an oddity), I have not heard a Reformed account of salvation which accounts for the human will rather than explaining it away or partitioning it with somewhat (by my estimation) awkward distinctions. Anyway, I will have to look into that discussion.

        In regards to good Pete and wicked Pete, I was speaking in relative terms, to be sure. The statement “all men are wicked” is one that I would also affirm, albeit with no small amount of qualification. Especially in our time. But in either case, the fact remains that something must have changed between the possible world where Pete is damned and the actual world, where he is saved. You claim that it is his circumstances which could be changed, having soteriological implications in his life. However, as Benjamin Winter illustrates below, either these circumstances come from God or they do not. If they do come from God, then God is still the variable that has been changed between our actual and possible worlds (because He chose to give Pete different circumstances). But God cannot change, so my argument still stands. If, however, these “circumstances” didn’t come from God, then Benjamin’s criticism stands, because these circumstances are now a determining factor of Pete’s salvation which God has no control over.

        I know that you are, in fact, claiming that these circumstances do come from God, because that is what you use to claim that the arbitrariness of God is a valid criticism against even those faith traditions that do not affirm Reformed Predestination: because [1] even when people have libertarian free will God nevertheless controls the circumstances and context they exist within, these circumstances influence (and I think we could even say, “determine,” in some sense) the way people use their freedom, specifically their decisions regarding salvation, and [2] God could have given any of the damned circumstances such that they would have been saved, or any of the saints circumstances such that they would have been damned. Do I have that? In my first post I simply gave some reasons we might deny [2]. There are so many different angles here. Let me try a different direction.

        I think the most critical position against your argument would be the position (which I am attributing to Molinism, but only because of the context of these comments–I am unfamiliar with the term) which claims that God has given each individual person the best possible chances for salvation here in the actual world. The biggest problem that I see with your argument is that it does not deal with this position. Rather, your argument seems to use the assumption that this position is false as a premise.

        Setting Pete aside, let’s consider his (relatively speaking, of course) evil twin, Petey. Petey is damned in the actual world. If I am understanding your argument, it claims that God could have placed certain conditions upon Petey’s life such that Petey would have come to saving faith, but can you see that this argument simply ASSUMES that such conditions are actually possible? Your opponent will simply say, “no, God couldn’t have done that, because God has already done everything for Petey in the actual world. There is no possible world where God could have done more to save Petey.” “God so loved the world…” right? “He has Moses and the prophets; let him hear them.” This is the most critical point for your argument, and what it really needs to refute in order to succeed.

        To me, it looks like you are basically claiming that everyone is actually a Calvinist, they just don’t know it. So there are Calvinists who believe that God directly controls every aspect of peoples lives (actual Calvinists), and Calvinists who simply believe that God’s control over people’s lives is still totally dominating, but happens via proxy–not by controlling their wills, but their circumstances (everyone else). Of course, to someone who actually believes that God does not, directly or indirectly, dominate every aspect of our lives, this is simply a straw man.

      5. Micah Carlson Avatar
        Micah Carlson

        Another way of seeing this would be that you are still assuming that God’s saving grace is irresistible. But to someone who does not affirm irresistible grace, the argument never gets a foothold.

      6. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, in the Calvinist view, humanity’s will is in bondage to sin, and needs to be released by being “made alive” in Christ, as Paul speaks in Ephesians 2. When one’s will is taken out of bondage to sin and into the freedom of grace, one’s will is made ready and willing (and free) to respond in saving faith.

        I think [2] is a pretty persuasive view to hold. After all, there are humans in this world in the past and future that will never hear the gospel, much less respond in saving faith. How can we say with any confidence that God has given them the “best” opportunity to respond to his grace?

        I’m not saying that everyone is a Calvinist and doesn’t know it. I think that would be too strong. I do believe that there is a difference (a big one in fact) between how salvation works in Calvinist and non-Calvinist systems. However, I am saying that there is much to be said for how God orders our circumstances. I am continually grateful for being raised as a white, heterosexual, American, Christian, upper middle class male in the twenty-first century. I mean, what a gift. Seriously. Yeah, so what I am saying is that, on the Molinist view (certainly not my view, see my response to Benjamin for why it is so funny that I am arguing for something I don’t believe in haha) circumstances do have salvific implications. I find it hard to believe that God can’t order Petey’s life, if God operates as the molinist says he does, to saving faith. And my main point to that is to ask the question of those who are not saved because they never hear the gospel, much less have an opportunity to accept or reject it.

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