Does Conciliar Post Exist?

This nerdy niche that we’ve carved out on the internet for ourselves called ā€œConciliar Postā€ is a pretty neat place. Here we tell stories about how to live as a Christian in this world, theologize about the historical distinctions between liturgical and low-church worship, write poetry about how worthy the God-Man is of our worship, and debate the schisms and skirmishes of Christianity’s past. Some of us have more professional credentials to be doing this sort of stuff, others, like me, are simply musing amateurs.

In the midst of this wide range of expertise, writing styles, ecclesial commitments, and opinions, we tell ourselves that we are bound together, performing ā€œmeaningful dialogue across Christian traditions.ā€ We tell ourselves that we can do this kind of intrafaith dialogue because we all ā€œaffirm the Apostles Creed and write in a thoughtful, loving manner.ā€ These two qualifications, it appears, form the foundation with which we can then discuss and debate our various interests within Christianity. Southern Baptists and Eastern Orthodox, so the story goes, can dialogue within the bounds of Christianity because of both charity and creed.

What I want to do in this article is probe the assumption of this website’s founding fathers, that the Apostles Creed is sufficient for creating a Christian space within which we can have meaningful intrafaith dialogue. What makes Conciliar Post intrafaith dialogue, within Christianity, as opposed to interfaith dialogue, dealing with different religions? This question, it seems to me, hinges on whether or not something like ā€œmere Christianityā€ actually exists out there in the world. I want to argue that if mere Christianity does not exist, then the unsavory conclusion holds; the Southern Baptists, Eastern Orthodox, Catholics, and Presbyterians of this website are debating across religions, not within one. Second, it seems that those who believe most strongly in a visible Church ecclesiology (i.e. ā€œwe are the one Church passed down from the apostlesā€), will be most disagreeable to mere Christianity, begging the question as to what ultimately binds us together as Christians.

So, does mere Christianity exist? C.S. Lewis, following the ideas of 17th century puritan Richard Baxter, certainly believed so, making the concept the bedrock of his book Mere Christianity, an explanation of beliefs and practices held in common by all Christians. He wrote, in distinguishing between his own Anglican beliefs and the beliefs of other Christians, ā€œI am not writing to expound something I could call ā€˜my religion’, but to expound ā€˜mere’ Christianity, which is what it is and what it was long before I was born and whether I like it or not.ā€1 Lewis assumes that mere Christianity exists and has existed for centuries past.

Conciliar Post has had something of a checkered history when it comes to agreement with Lewis. Jacob Prahlow, in a recent article, concludes that he can embrace a particular Southern Baptist church despite minor theological disagreement, because of a commitment to a ā€œmere Christianity tribalism.ā€ Because the Saint Louis church embraces, as Melanchthon says, ā€œthings necessaryā€ of Christianity, he can seek the flourishing and oneness of the congregation he has bound himself to. Jody Byrkett, in dialogue with my article this past August, wrote that, ā€œSometimes I wonder if we at Conciliar Post focus too much on our differences rather than ‘mere Christianity’, I wonder if we are adding to the schisms of the past or helping folks to close the gaps they think are there.ā€ Ben Cabe, in the same comment thread, disagreed with mere Christianity, arguing that there is no ā€œlist of detailsā€ that we can all agree with.

If Ben Cabe (not to pick on him) is correct and mere Christianity does not exist, what binds us together here at Conciliar Post to do intrafaith dialogue? Certainly, the founders of the website responded to this question by instituting the rule that we all assent to the Apostles Creed, thereby assuring that each writer would be a Christian within the (lower case) orthodox tradition. But is this sufficient? I ask this not as someone who is hoping to cause needless division, but someone who hopes to clarify what binds Christians of all stripes together. It seems to me that if one disagrees with mere Christianity, exemplified at Conciliar Post by the Apostles Creed qualification, then Conciliar Post ceases to be a place that exists as ā€œmeaningful dialogue across Christian traditions.ā€ This seems to me to be most problematic for the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox of the blog, for they hold to a strict visible Church ecclesiology, the exclusive faith passed down by the apostles. Can these traditions assent to mere Christianity? If not, is there something else we can appeal to in order to bind ourselves together as Christians?

Coming from a Protestant background, it seems natural to believe in an invisible church ecumenism. What matters, so my tradition has it, is that we are united to Christ, full stop. If Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholics, Methodists, and the Pentecostals down the street are believers in Christ, well then we’re all in the same club. As believers, we are repentant, forgiven, baptized, and called to live a life pleasing to God.
As Jacob Prahlow cites from Philip Melanchthon, ā€œIn things necessary, unity. In things not necessary, liberty. In all things, charity.ā€ Can Conciliar Post exist using the Apostles Creed as our ā€œthings necessaryā€? Does believing in this require the Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholic of this blog to change their ecclesiology to incorporate more of an ā€œinvisible churchā€ model? Or, are we willing to swallow (God forbid) that we are simply doing interfaith dialogue?

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1. C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity, in The Complete C.S. Lewis Signature Classics, (San Francisco: Harper One, 2002), 6[/wpex]

Comments

28 responses to “Does Conciliar Post Exist?”

  1. Ben Cabe Avatar

    Hi George. Thanks for the article. I am guessing you are pulling from the provocatively titled article, “Is Protestantism a Heresy” ( https://prahlowjacob-pvcnh.wpcomstaging.com/theology-spirituality/is-protestantism-a-heresy/ ) — and possibly other comments I’ve made throughout the site. Below is what I said with reference to Lewis (that any “mere Christianity” is “merely” a meeting hall—a place where we can meet and discuss things—but one with many doors leading into different rooms: baptist / anglican / orthodox, etc. This meeting hall is essentially our Christology, Trinitarianism, etc.). Below is the paragraph:

    “Many would like me to say that all Trinitarian Christianities are created equal; that it does not matter where you belong; that there is a kind of mere Christianity that can unite us, though invisibly, as the Church (ekklesia). But a unity in mere Christianity, such as we seemed to have achieved here on Conciliar Post, is a kind of meeting hall, as C. S. Lewis describe it, not the unity of the Church. The unity of the Church is based in the mystery of the Holy Trinity, it is a unity explicitly effected through the Eucharist (1 Corinthians 10:16-17), a mystery that calls us to union with one another, and to Christ in the same manner Christ is one with the Father (John 17:20-26). This kind of union is not based on a stripped down list of essentials, as Paul notes, but in the total unity of mind and judgment (1 Corinthians 1:10). This is of the utmost importance: the Church is the Body of Christ and Christ is not divided, so how can His Church be? With these considerations, it seems that an invisible church based on the unity of a few distinct dogmas that all Trinitarian Christians believe, cannot be what the writers of Holy Scripture had in mind.1”

    And then the footnote:

    “1. It should be noted that within the walls of the Orthodox Church, you will find a distinction between essentials (dogma) and theological opinion (theologoumenon). This ā€œlistā€ developed as the early Christians fought against the heretical teachings of the time. In this sense, we can say that Christian dogma developed in articulation in order to refute false teachings. This is why we have the creeds. It should also be noted that these essentials are agreed upon in every branch of Orthodoxy—unlike in Protestantism where the lists of essentials all differ from one another.”

    The dispute between traditions is not merely what dogma’s are necessary but what necessarily follows as a result of those dogmas.

    I found your recent article referencing your questions on such stripped down list quite fascinating: ( https://prahlowjacob-pvcnh.wpcomstaging.com/theology-spirituality/denomination-discombobulation-the-disorienting-effect-of-protestantism-and-conciliar-post/ )

    I’m curious who you see your thought develop or change between that article (Denomination Discombobulation) and this article.

    I wonder if the larger (scarier) question is, at what point would one be willing to say that these different Christian traditions (or adherents to them) are worshipping a different god. (Or a demonic delusion). This is a difficult subject but it may depend, in part, on the adherent himself.

    All in all, I would say that the Orthodox Church is the true church. Honestly, my interest in *dialogue* has somewhat decreased in the last year, as I find dogmatic disputes to be something that pull one back to a surface level of Christianity—the good stuff comes after you fully accept your *Orthodox* tradition, stop trying to convince people of it, and start working out your own salvation. The depth is in the struggle, not the articulation, or fancy words. I think most would agree with this. And, as many words as this response is, too many words are a dangerous thing. Ultimately, it’s a mystery, parts of which have been revealed to us and preserved in the Orthodox Tradition. There is not a single doubt in my mind and with respect to this; I dialogue with the hope of creating a bridge to the Orthodox Tradition for fellow strivers.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      I certainly agree with your last paragraph, I don’t (and should not succumb to the temptation) to view theological conversations as the highest expression of lived Christianity, far from it. I certainly agree with the thrust of your final paragraph.

      As to your other reflections, I certainly believe as well that Christ and the scriptures did not have in mind a “mere Christianity” or “invisible church” type unity. That, I believe you, ought to be clear. And I also agree with you on your point about dogmas.

      Though, I want to say that I find applying your second-to-last paragraph to (what I would call) mere Christians of all stripes existentially unbearable. I don’t want to believe that Southern Baptists with a potentially deficient view of the Eucharist or an Eastern Orthodox with a potentially deficient view of justification are outside of Christ and the Church. I think that we have to develop a lower-case “orthodoxy” of belief and practice that binds us together, such that we don’t devolve into (I think) unsavory conclusions of believing “the rest” to be simply schismatics or demon worshipers. The meeting hall, I think, can’t be a tunnel to different destinations, but in some way connected to the broader house of mere Christianity.

      At this point, I’m thinking that union with Christ is more fundamental than union to the true Church, if that even exists. I think existentially (and probably biblically) I have to believe that. I have to believe in some sort of invisible church, without downplaying the important points of agreement above.

      1. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Thanks, George! I really appreciate conversing with you.

        I think there is certainly something to be said for a proper Christology (those outside the Orthodox Church like the Protestant denominations here on this site). But the real danger is in guidance (or not having the guidance of the Church). One is forced to use exclusively one’s own faculties of knowledge to discern, even when “looking at other voices for input”… Ultimately, it is the individual who decides, and this is dangerous.

        I agree with Ben’s comment about Christ / the body of Christ, as he hit what I was going to say. Certainly God is gracious and such conversations are difficult to have. I will respond more later… Until then, thanks again!

      2. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        I think what I’m doing is assuming the EO/RC paradigm, and then looking at the status of Christians outside that paradigm. So, if the RC Church is the *true* body of Christ, and the hypothetical Southern Baptist exists outside of that body, then how do we conceive of her? Well, it seems that we have to posit that she is 1) united with Christ and 2) expand the “body of Christ” idea to pertain to those outside of the *true* body of Christ.

        In that sense, assuming the RC paradigm in this way, we privilege union with Christ (in reference to present justification, future sanctification, future glorification and union with the undivided body of Christ in the eschaton) instead of union with a *true* body of Christ. In doing this, we *extend* what it means to be connected to the Church (body of Christ) beyond our adherence to what we (RC/EO) believe to be the one true Church. This hypothetical Protestant is united to Christ the Person, but is insufficiently united to the Church. This is not to create a strict dichotomy (I don’t want to be misread) between Christ the Person and his body, but to say that given a schismatic Christendom, we have to expand what the Body of Christ is in order to incorporate Protestants. Otherwise, we are left with an overly simplistic and insufficiently ecumenical view from EO/RC on how Protestants are connected to Christ and his body.

        On the one hand, one could read this as me shaking in my boots at the exclusivistic statements made by RC/EO on this blog as to true apostolic succession, and me wanting to remain semi-comfortable as a Protestant. On the other, you could read this as yearning for a conception of the Church that doesn’t leave Protestants out in the cold, who are united to Christ full stop.

    2. Matthew Bryan Avatar
      Matthew Bryan

      Hello, Ben. I’ve been reading “Three Views on Eastern Orthodoxy and Evangelicalism.” In it, the first author (who appears to be strongly affirmed by Eastern Orthodox Antiochian higherarchy) clearly says that he regards properly baptized and authentically believing Protestants to be part of the one true Church. Am I correct to assume therefore that the standing of Protestants regarding the one true Church is, as you put it, “theologoumenon”?

      If so, then I believe your “bridge” (a bridge which I sincerely appreciate) could be helped by communicating that form of ecclesiology as one of the acceptable views within EO, not your own view but an accepted alternative EO view. I say this not because I want you or anyone else to assure others of their Ecclesiastical status. Rather, I found it helpful to know this because I incorrectly assumed until now that your own undefined stance on ecclesiastical status of Protestants was “dogma” rather than theologoumenon. If that stance were dogma, then I too would have to embrace it in order to embrace the EO faith. Since I strongly disagree with the stance you presented, and because I presumed your stance was EO dogma, I may have incorrectly considered that stance to be a hindrance.

      What are your thoughts, please?
      Thanks,
      Matthew

      1. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Well we know that Protestants are not a part of the visible church. I would be interested to see how the author deals with this sort of “splitting” of the body of Christ, etc. I would have to read what he said to make extensive comments, but I would say ultimately it’s a mystery. But… Orthodoxy is the True church.

      2. Matthew Bryan Avatar
        Matthew Bryan

        The author in question is Bradly Nassif. I understand that you disagree with him on the issue, but I’m asking whether you understand that disagreement to be theologoumenon within Eastern Orthodoxy. The book has two other EO contributors who disagree with Nassif. Yet neither they nor the EO endorsers of the book (several of which have the title of Father) question whether Nassif is allowed to hold the view he holds. It appears therefore that the topic is theologoumenon. If I’m mistaken in that impression, I certainly want to be corrected.

        Specifically, I often discuss Eastern Orthodoxy in a very positive light with my Protestant friends. I would not want to misrepresent this disagreement to them if such a disagreement is not allowed to exist within EO due to dogma.

      3. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Again, I would have to read what exactly he says and how he qualifies it. But if he means to say that Protestants are “in the church” (however vague that is) “in the same way, manner, or depth that Orthodox Christians are” then I would have to disagree and admit that he is going against Orthodoxy / History. However, if he is allowing for some grace (which I believe is necessary) and not making the claim that Protestants are a part of the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church in the same manner as Orthodox, then I suppose he could hold that opinion without too much ado.

        It may be offensive and try as I may to make it “approachable” the truth is that it is offensive: Orthodoxy is the one Church. Disagree if you like, but this is the truth. It cannot be recreated or imitated or picked over—the church has be to joined.

      4. Matthew Bryan Avatar
        Matthew Bryan

        Thanks, Ben. I appreciate both your distaste for offense and your adherence to dogma. If you have time and interest in perusing the book, I will be interested in your further feedback. By all apearances, the reaction to his stance by Eastern Orthodox hierarchy appears (to this outsider at least) to place his claim in the realm of Eastern Orthodox theologoumenon.

        Several comments in the book make it clear that his stance is highly controversial theologoumenon however. For example, the other two EO contributors gave the impression that the voluntary inclusion of Eastern Orthodoxy in the World Council of Churches and the National Council of the Churches of Christ in the United States of America reflects a recognition of ecumenicity with which many Eastern Orthodox strongly disagree. I expect you too will side with those concientious objectors.

      5. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Thanks, Matthew. I will have to keep the book in mind. If I get to it, I will let you know for sure

  2. Benjamin Winter Avatar
    Benjamin Winter

    Bold and good article, George! Of the two positions you outline, I lean towards defining Mere Christianity based on love more so than on dogma. This makes mere Christianity a large tent indeed, for many can exemplify the love of Christ.

    I appreciate your article in that it has challenged me to rethink the place of Apostles Creed dogmas in intrafaith dialogue… I very much understand where you’re coming from with regard to the chasm between apostolic-succession-Christian communities and others. For instance, there have been times in the past where I have nearly given up hope on reconciling different interpretations of key doctrines like free will, sin, salvation, judgment. It’s easier to reconcile differing interpretations is all are members of a unified Body that runs the gamut of the Church’s history.

    Until now, when considering the status of those outside that visible structure, I have taken refuge in the notion that to be a follower of Christ is more than simply to believe certain truth propositions (i.e. propositions even about the makeup of the Christian community). Of course, some would take issue with me on this! So, to end these rambling reflections, my takeaway question is what would separate a Christian from a true follower of any other religion (and therefore what would make conciliar post unique), if the love of Christ is forefronted in opposition to beliefs.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      Yeah, I’m with you. I purposefully didn’t delve into the “charity” criteria of CP, though that too is necessary and important. Yeah, I mean I don’t think we can simply say “love of Christ” full stop, if we want to take the faith aspect of Christianity seriously. I think this goes back to our previous conversation on faith and works and my frustration with Protestantism distancing the two. Both must be forefront it seems. And a place like CP can’t really *contain* “love of Christ” expressed in bodies, but just in disembodied minds.

      Wow, lots of rambling there. See if anything sticks.

  3. Kenneth O'Shaughnessy Avatar
    Kenneth O’Shaughnessy

    Ultimately, our ability for intrafaith rather than interfaith dialog has to do with whether we are working from the same story thread. In this sense, even though we are both (purportedly) seeking to describe Christ, we cannot have intrafaith dialog with Mormons and Jehovah’s Witnesses (or, to some degree for that matter, Oneness “theologians”) – they have a different christ-story. Those of us here, whatever our response to that story may be, are working with the same thread, and trying to describe the same plot-points from our own (always) subjective perspectives. To me, that’s the basic “list”. Ecclesiology, eschatology, and even soteriology are all subjects that are discussable, but only if we have the same Christology. Otherwise we come from radically different presuppositions.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      Yup, I think that’s gotta be it. I’m totally on board with this. To put what you are saying succinctly, let me know if you think I’m saying this right, there are fundamental presuppositions to the Christian story that Christians of all stripes share. And then there are non-fundamental presuppositions that distinguish varying Christian traditions.

      I’m curious if Ben (Cabe) would take issue with that sort of statement.

      1. Kenneth O'Shaughnessy Avatar
        Kenneth O’Shaughnessy

        Yes, but I’m also saying those fundamental presuppositions are ALL Christological in nature, and all the secondary ones are not per se.

      2. Kenneth O'Shaughnessy Avatar
        Kenneth O’Shaughnessy

        Let me give an example of what I mean. Ecclesiology begins with a recognition that the Church is the body of Christ – it is Christological to that degree, as all things for a Christian must be. But we can say different things about what it means to be the body of Christ without saying anything different about Christ at all.

      3. Kenneth O'Shaughnessy Avatar
        Kenneth O’Shaughnessy

        The Body of Christ as being what one had to be included in to be Christian, and the fact that an “invisible body” is nonsensical, is the main concept that took me out of the Reformed Baptist church into the Orthodox church. I’m not willing to say only the Orthodox are Christian, any more than I am to say that only “Christians” will be ultimately saved, but I don’t think the scriptures allow us the comfort of George’s dichotomy, either. On the other hand, since the point is still “Christian”, and by definition that means one who is following Christ, as long as we’re defining the same Christ, we can have profitable discussions and treat one another as fellow believers, no matter how otherwise deceived we might be šŸ˜‰

      4. Ben Cabe Avatar

        This is excellent. And (George) I take no issue with Kenneth’s statement(s). We can agree on Christology (as on here) but the issue(s) falls in what this implies—e.g., visible church, icons (because of incarnation), holy items (holy water), the Eucharist, what it means for the atonement and how man is saved, etc. but Kenneth is absolutely right. We can only begin the discussion when we can agree on Christ (hence JW’s and Mormons are excluded). The conversation must always begin and end with Christ; the question is, what this means and how it compels us to move forward in faith and (possibly) into a different Christian Tradition (Orthodoxy šŸ™‚

      5. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, this is a great thread, and I really appreciate your Christological clarifications here Kenneth. I don’t want to be read as proposing a strict dichotomy between union with Christ and union with the Church. I agree there is no “invisible body” and that in the eschaton there will be no distinction between union with Christ and union with the Church.

        Though, in this present moment, there is a distinction between union with Christ and full union with His Church. And I’m arguing this is tragic, but it is self-evident, and it requires us to think with distinctions like Kenneth (Christological story vs. non-fundamentals) that would not be necessary if the Church was not split. And it does require us to *insert* a bit of an invisible church model (not with a strict dichotomy however), because how else can we imagine all of us to eventually be a part of Christ’s undivided body in the eschaton?

      6. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Do you think it would be helpful to dileneate between varying depths of union (or communion) with Christ and in the body? Ultimately the consummation and filial union takes place within the Church. That is, while I would not call this “invisible church” I would like to mention that God is gracious and loving and desires all men to come to himself—and he has given us the ability to through the Church. Ultimately, if there is not a dualist vision of the invisible/visible church, then those outside the visible church are outside the church. But what this means is up for debate. Certainly some traditions are closer to the Church than others. But they can never be the one church unless they join it.

        That might not make sense…

      7. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        It seems a “varying depths of union” would only be helpful within your ecclesial commitment to Eastern Orthodoxy, rather than something that could be applied universally. But, as an outsider, I think that would be a helpful way for you to view things as Orthodox.

        I do want to say, following my response to Ben above, that there ought to be a baseline union with Christ/salvation/repentance/justification that we must view of other Christians, before we then get into a “varying depths of union” discussion.

      8. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Maybe this is where my position above can be somewhat clarified. Because I find faith and baptism to mean union with Christ full stop, I want to understand conceptually how to think of Protestants as connected to the Church, given they are united to Christ. I think maybe this clarifies some things given our thoughts on purgatory, because I don’t think whatsoever that Protestants will need to be purged of their insufficient union with the Church (assuming an RC paradigm of ecclesiology), but their union with Christ will simply carry to heaven and to the resurrection.

        Maybe this clarifies, maybe it just clouds things. I dunno.

      9. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I suppose this also begs the question of sacramental validity, etc. But Ben Winter did touch on baptism (according to Augustine) of those “outside the church”

      10. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, I mean invisible church in a similar way to the Catholic Church’s statement. I think that way of thinking about it from the Catholic Church is helpful and ecumenical, while still retaining a “we are the Church handed down from the apostles” type visible church view. I don’t think I would want to take that away from the Catholic/Orthodox Churches.

        I think the purgatorial way of viewing it is not the way to go. First, because I don’t believe in purgatory, it’s certainly a hindrance to becoming Roman Catholic for myself. Second and more important, a purgatorial view is essentially a negative posture, rather than a positive one. What I am suggesting is to start from union with Christ, which we all have based on our faith and repentance, and see that as the fundamental starting point, rather than a “everything that is non-Roman Catholic of you will be purged away” view (I hope that doesn’t misrepresent you). Because we are united with Christ we will be united with each other in the eschaton, not because of something that needs to be purged.

  4. Paul Pavao Avatar

    I’m coming by this a little late, but I do have a perspective that I think has not been represented here. To me the biggest thing is discipleship and fellowship, not theological positions.

    I know the Apostles Creed is necessary. It was made to keep out those who hold to theologies that could undermine the faith. I hold to it, and I like using it as a minimum theological requirement.

    That said, the reason I am in the local church that I am in is because I want to live out Acts 2:42-47. I want to live the community life I see in Acts. I want to be able to say what Tertullian says, that riches don’t trouble us in the church because we share everything except our wives. I want to be able to say what Justin said, that though we were once of other tribes and hated each other, now we share the same fire.

    I want to be in a place where people don’t fret at and explain away the commands of Christ. I want to pursue faith, love, peace, and righteousness along with those who call on the Lord out of a pure heart.

    2 Timothy 2:19 says that the Lord knows those who are his, and that those who name the name of Christ should depart from iniquity. To me, that verse more than any other sums up mere Christianity. It’s about pursuing obedience to our King together, living like we really are family, pursuing the faces of the saints every day.

  5. Jacob Prahlow Avatar

    Before weighing in, I want to make two quick notes: first, I’m reading and responding to George’s article, not the comments (which I’m too lazy/time pressed to sort through). Accordingly, if what I’m saying has been said, I apologize. Second, George, thanks for this thought-provoking piece. I genuinely appreciate your zeal and willingness to ask the hard questions about faith and life. Now, onto a response.

    You ask, “Can Conciliar Post exist using the Apostles Creed as our ‘things
    necessary’?” In truth, this was something the founders of CP asked themselves in some capacity rather early on, particularly when we realized that we couldn’t use the Nicene Creed because of the filioque clause controversy. The issue has also come up on a couple of occasions when the topic of “heresy” arises, particularly since the Apostles Creed doesn’t address particular (heretical) views on who God is in the way that other ancient Creedal statements do. That being said, the Apostle’s Creed embodies the central dogmatic tenets of Christian faith in such a way as to provide at least some basis from which to begin dialogue. I can only speak for myself of course, but I don’t anticipate “dialogue” having no impact on my faith life–I expect (and have experienced) the conversations here at CP expanding my horizons and shifting my understandings. Thus, the Apostle’s Creed doesn’t functionally have to incorporate all of the “things necessary” for CP conversations to exist and prove fruitful. Rather, it must only serve as enough of a foundation for dialogue to begin. And I think the results of that foothold are self-evident.

    Next you ask, “Does believing in this require the Eastern Orthodox and
    Roman Catholic of this blog to change their ecclesiology to incorporate
    more of an ā€œinvisible churchā€ model?” Belonging to neither of these communions, I cannot pretend to speak with even remote authority on the answer to this question. However, it does seem that the EO and RC communions (especially in the past fifty years) have embraced the possibility of meaningful unity across Christian traditions. While I certainly think that CP makes meaningful contributions to our world, I don’t think that anyone here thinks we are the only one’s undertaking this type of dialogue. EO-RC-Protestant dialogues vary in acceptability and applicability, of course, but — to my mind — it doesn’t follow that claiming your own status as “true church” means there are no other other churches in existence. I.e., I may think that the particular body of doctrine and practice to which I adhere makes the best sense of God’s revelation, history, and the world today, but does that mean I have to think everyone apart from that church will be cast into the outer darkness? Of course not. And I think a fair and charitable reading of EO/RC statements on this issue accords with that perspective. Again, if this is not correct, I stand ready to be corrected.

    Finally you ask, “Or, are we willing to swallow (God
    forbid) that we are simply doing interfaith dialogue?” Prima facia, I don’t see anything wrong with undertaking interfaith dialogue, especially if you’re going to define faith as any coherent system of theological belief. In that case, everything we do is interfaith dialogue, since even the people closest to me in theological thought have some differences. But here I think that term becomes so broad so as to become almost meaningless for our purposes. And there the issue of unity comes in, at least unity so far as we have chosen to define it: based on the Apostles Creed as a traditional statement of the basic essentials of Christian faith.

    Again, thanks for this excellent provocation George. JJP

    1. Matthew Bryan Avatar
      Matthew Bryan

      I thought all Christians affirm the actual Nicene Creed with debate arising only over the Niceno Constatinopolitan Creed. I wasn’t aware that any Christians divide over the Creed of Nicea nor that any claim the Filioque was ever part of it, as Roman Catholics do for the Niceno-Constantinopolitan.

      Here is the Nicene:
      “We believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of all things visible and invisible. And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of the Father, Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; By whom all things were made; Who for us men, and for our salvation, came down and was incarnate and was made man; He suffered, and the third day he rose again, ascended into heaven; From thence he shall come to judge the quick and the dead. And in the Holy Ghost.”
      Source for the quote: http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/creeds1.iv.iii.html

      Perhaps Roman Catholics now reject the NC, seeing it as replaced by the NCC and therefore no longer valid?

    2. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      Yeah, maybe using “interfaith” was confusing, I mean it to say “inter-religious,” as opposed to “intrafaith” as meaning “within a religion.” Maybe I should’ve done more work to explain what I meant in the article.

      As to your key point in your comment (“it doesn’t follow that claiming your own status as “true church” means there are no other other churches in existence.”) is spot on. And you’re right, I know very little of how churches have conceptually built that truth into their own self-perception. I’m just trying to tease that truth that your comment recognizes out, and what that might mean for how we conceive of the Church. For Protestants, it seems very easy to simply appeal to an invisible church type model, which as others have argued, is insufficient and problematic. For EO/RC, it seems a little more tricky to get to that truth. I’m just trying to tease that out I guess.

      Thanks for a helpful summary statement of what I’m realizing. It seems a little paradoxical (“true church” alongside of “other churches”), but maybe that’s what we’ve (If we’re RC/EO) got to work with prior to God making all things new. As for Protestants, I dunno if claiming “‘true church’ alongside other churches” is even feasible. I dunno, I’m just a musing amateur who knows so little.

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