Having just passed the one-year anniversary of the Supreme Court’s DOMA decision and with the Presbyterian Church (USA) General Assembly’s recent vote, the issue of Same-Sex Marriage remains much discussed and oft debated in our culture. To help us think more clearly about this subject, we asked the Conciliar Post team and a few guest authors to offer their thoughts on some aspects of Same-Sex Marriage in a Round Table format.

Round Tables are where numerous authors contribute their perspectives on a topic or question, demonstrating the unity and/or variety of perspectives within American Christianity on that particular issue. In order to offer a true Round Table, where numerous voices are heard, we have asked that responses be both brief and precise (though follow up articles are a possibility). Accordingly, the statements below are intended as starting places for a civil discussion of this often uncivil topic.

Before anything else, we want to acknowledge that a lot of damage has been done by Christians weighing in on the same-sex marriage debate. If you have been hurt in the past as a result of this, on behalf of all Christians, we want to beg your forgiveness. You are an invaluable, unrepeatable, infinitely precious human being and you are unconditionally loved by God—a love we have not done a good job communicating to you. Forgive us.


George_Aldhizer_75pxGeorge Aldhizer

Author at Conciliar Post


I believe that followers of Christ are called to a distinctive way of being in the world, characterized by grace and truth. Too often Christians in America opt for a stunted public theology (and yes, our theologies must be public) that aims to proclaim a certain vision of the “truth” without first starting with grace. Grace in listening to those in and outside the church who are LGBTQ, grace in not believing there is a culture war to be won or an idol of “America” to be restored, and grace in responding in worship to a God of grace who loves those on the margins and seeks out us sinners.

Within this grace-full framework is where I believe the Christian proclamation of truth is to be found. It is under this framework where we can discuss and engage the relevance (or lack thereof) of biblical morality in a pluralistic democracy, the benefits of a strong marriage culture (what should that look like?) in society, the telos of human sexuality, marriage equality, the relationship of the church and Christians to society and political engagement, etc etc. What we see far too often (I’m speaking as an American Protestant) is a Republicanized, often-homophobic, and fear driven response to this question that doesn’t take into account the foundational starting point of grace for a Christian public theology.

George Aldhizer

Author at Conciliar Post


Amanda Barber_75pxAmanda Barber

Author at Conciliar Post


I do not support gay marriage for several reasons, not all of which are  wrapped up in the well-known account of Sodom and Gomorrah or passages like Leviticus 18:22 and Romans 1. (Though, at the very least, these passages should provide a pretty good clue.) I will discuss two of these reasons. First, according to Genesis, marriage is not a social construct. Marriage is God’s original creation. We are obliged to follow His ground rules and see to it that our marriages fall within His good purposes. There are several purposes for marriage, but the topic of gay marriage points me directly to one of them—procreation (Genesis 1:28). Sexual intercourse is the means by which God gives children to a marriage. Though not every man-woman marriage is given God’s gift of fertility, the possibility of fertility is still there. (Genesis 17:15-19, Genesis 18:11-14, Genesis 21:1-2) God does open the womb in a man-woman marriage through sexual intercourse. He does not open the womb by means of sexual intercourse in a same-sex marriage. Gay marriage fails the litmus test on this count alone.

Secondly, in the whole of Scripture there is no precedent for anything approaching this recent idea of gay marriage. No where. (Not even in the New Testament.) If marriage had somehow undergone a change between the old and new covenants, it should have been clearly stated in the New Testament. The opposite happened right away in the book of Matthew when Jesus reiterated Genesis, “’…Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, and said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?’” (Matthew 19:4-5, KJV)  Even when the Apostle Paul speaks about marriage as an illustration of Christ and the church in Ephesians 5, marriage is still defined as a one-man, one-woman relationship. For these two reasons and a host of others that two paragraphs do not permit me to explore, I cannot support gay marriage in good conscience.

Amanda Barber

Author at Conciliar Post


Molly Bolton Picture_75pxMolly Bolton

Guest Author


My thoughts on same-sex marriage (or as I like to call it, “marriage”), eh? What to talk about, what to talk about. The ugly notion of “Biblical marriage”? The historic use of scripture to propagate discrimination? Religion, patriarchy, and the policing of bodies? The Christian fetishization of hetero-marriage? My head is spinning, I tell you, SPINNING! But you are smart people. And you probably know just by reading my bio (below) what I think about same-sex marriage. (Secret: I’m for it). And the good news is,most folks are with me. Philosophical, sociological, and scientific understandings of gender and sexuality have developed over time and culture has responded. At this point Utah (UTAH!) has same-sex marriage.

Same-sex marriage is a reality. So the more pressing question, it seems to me is: what are we doing to help people of faith in this changing environment?

Here’s my wild idea: Let’s talk about gender and sexuality in church. Let’s educate leaders of faith communities so they might, in turn, educate their congregants and community. The Religious Institute’s A Time to Seek: A Study Guide on Sexual and Gender Diversity is a good place to start. The cultural support of same-sex marriage seems to be a golden opportunity for religious communities to do some good ol’ fashioned soul-searching. The Church can no longer choose the “opt-out” option on the matter. It can no longer maintain the hetero status quo.  To attempt to do so is not only silly and archaic, but would dig religion deeper into the pit of cultural irrelevance. So here’s to same-sex marriage for forcing an issue! And here’s to more love, light, peace, hope, relevance, and divine diversity in the commonwealth of God!

Molly Bolton

Guest Author

Author at Holy Heresy: W@nderings of a Feminist Chaplain

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Molly Bolton has her Masters of Divinity from the Wake Forest School of Divinity. She served as a pastoral intern at Green Street UMC and spent a summer as a community fellow with WATER (Women’s Alliance for theology, Ethics, and Ritual). Molly is currently a chaplain resident at the Cleveland Clinic in Cleveland, OH. Follow her work at Holy Heresy: W@nderings of a Feminist Chaplain.[/wpex]


Jody Byrkett_75pxJody Byrkett

Author at Conciliar Post


“Mawwage. Mawwage is what bwings us together today.” 1  I quote the Impressive Clergyman because the real question behind all of same-sex union/marriage talk is really, what is marriage?

Since the dawn of creation, marriage has been the joining together of one man and one woman, different in anatomical design, fitting together as one. It is two equally human persons who are complimentary (fulfilling, completing) to one another, being made one entity. A man and a woman joined together in body, soul, and spirit (now done under law), creates a single, unified entity called marriage. This cannot be the case with persons of the same sex. They might love one another and sleep together, but the joining of two of the same variety (same sex, not crossing the parameter of species) do not make a third thing, a marriage.

To reduce marriage to a legal statement misses the point. Marriage is not about tax cuts or even status. To reduce marriage to any conglomeration of persons, or persons and things, is not possible. Marriage is a much higher and more real thing than all of that. More real, I say, yet the paradox is that marriage itself is a shadow. Marriage is a symbol, a picture, of Jesus Christ and the Church. Bridegroom and Bride, fitted together as one, the marriage that all other marriages should seek to image.

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[1] William Goldman, The Princess Bride [/wpex]

 Jody Byrkett

Author at Conciliar Post


Ben CabeBen Cabe

Editor-in-Chief at Conciliar Post


Marriage is a great mystery. We must acknowledge before we begin speaking about same-sex marriage, however, that the linguistic signifier “marriage” has already been distanced from that which it has traditionally been understood to signify. The signified reality (the mystery) has been traditionally understood by the Church to be an ontological and mystical reality—not a legal contract—between one male and one female. Members of the same-sex were precluded from this mystery, not because of civil inequality but rather, because of the ontological impossibility; the heterosex of a couple was considered by the early Church to be an essential property of “marriage.”1 These epistemic claims about the essence of marriage were considered to be the revealed truth of Scripture as interpreted by the Church. When the authority to interpret Scripture, however, was stripped from the Church and her tradition and given to the individual it opened the door to an epidemic of redefinition. As a result, marriage was taken out of its natural context: its sacramental understanding, its connection with the Eucharist (and the reality of the Eucharist), and the Church. Over time this lead to a collapse in mainstream Christendom’s understanding of marriage—this is evident by the rise of divorce among Christian couples. All of this laid the initial groundwork for the arena in which the same-sex marriage debate would take place. Today, marriage is primarily understood as a promise of fidelity centered around a legal contract and this, it seems to me, is where the debate is being hashed-out.

Christians should fight and defend the equal rights of all human beings.2 Same-sex couples should have the right to get married where ‘marriage’ is understood to mean a promise of fidelity and a legal contract. But same-sex couples do not have the right to the mystery of marriage as the Church understands it—as a sacrament—because rights are limited by what is possible. I cannot fight for equal rights with fish to extract oxygen directly from the water with my lungs. Even if I am legally granted a right to this it does not change the fact that it is impossible: the lungs do not work that way. The sacrament does not work that way. Regardless of what it is called or the ritual that is used two persons of the same-sex cannot be joined in the mystery of ‘marriage’—as the Church has traditionally understood it—not because they don’t have a ‘right’ to but rather because it is an impossibility. For me, the same-sex ‘marriage’ debate is not over equal rights; it is over the linguistic signifier, ‘marriage’. Traditionally this term has belonged to the Church but times have changed. So Is the term marriage worth fighting for? I would answer yes. Throughout history the Church Fathers fought to clarify, through terminology, the mysteries divinely communicated to the Church. In the legal sphere there is nothing wrong with ‘same-sex marriage.’ Same-sex couples should not be subjugated or marginalized. Could we compromise? Could we allow such legal benefits to same-sex couples but call it something else? I am not sure this would be considered a reasonable compromise—since the term itself, it seems to me, is that which brings the social recognition that is sought after. If, however, the church has any hope to clarify these things it has to get back to a traditional interpretation of Scripture—all of scripture—and marriage has to be returned to its natural context. Then, and only then, will we begin to have the ability to begin dialoguing about this issue.

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[1] Robin Phillips, “Apples, Oranges & Gay Marriage,” Salvo, Fall 2012, 14.

[2] Hopko, Thomas. Christian Faith and Same-Sex Attraction. Ben Lomond: Conciliar Press, 2006. 83-86. Print. [/wpex]

Ben Cabe

Editor-in-Chief at Conciliar Post

Author at BenCabe 


MicahCarloson_75px


KathyDubs_75pxKathy Dubs

Author at Conciliar Post


That is a hard question. I have friends with very passionate views on both sides of the issue, and not a very strong opinion on it myself. I guess the one thing that I do worry about when thinking of homosexual marriage is that the moment the nation accepts gay marriage, we have to answer questions about children and adoption. A home that deliberately excludes adult representation from one half of the human race is not an ideal child-raising environment. If the child is of the gender excluded, it will be hard for the child to accept his or her identity without feeling like a failure to their parents. On the other hand, children of the accepted gender will find it hard to learn how to interact with the opposite one. If it’s wrong for straight parents to reject or attempt to change gay offspring, it’s just as wrong for gay parents to reject or attempt to change straight offspring. Statistically, it’s highly unlikely for gay parents to have gay offspring. This is a really complicated topic and it’s hard to fully discuss the intricacies with brevity. In conclusion, if the right to marry includes the right to adopt, I have to oppose homosexual marriage.

Kathy Dubs

Author at Conciliar Post


LauraE_75pxLaura Ehlen

Senior Editor at Conciliar Post


I struggle significantly to address the issue of same-sex marriage. My conservative upbringing and religious beliefs inform my convictions about the sanctity and fecundity of marriage. Same-sex marriage offers no such fecundity, brings into question natural law, and deviates from the Scriptures teaching on marriage and Church tradition. Yet at the same time, my own awareness of my sinfulness, coupled with compassion for the most quotidian ups and downs of human life, makes my heart ache a little for them. Overall, my conservatism weighs against this: even if they can marry in a civil ceremony, which my religious beliefs hesitate to even recognize as on the same level as being married in the church (whatever your denomination), they are not and cannot be married in the eyes of the church (again, here the word crosses denominational boundaries). Church marriage is a sacrament; civil marriage, whether between a man and a woman or a same-sex couple, is not a sacrament. I perceive a huge difference between states validating same-sex marriage and the Church permitting same-sex marriage.

When I think of same-sex marriage, what comes first to my mind is not a fear for the sanctity of marriage, nor a concern about equal rights, nor a reference to natural law. Rather, drawing upon the example of Pope Francis, when I first think of same-sex marriage, I think of how we must learn to both recognize and grapple with sin and treat others with compassion and freedom from judgment. Sin is a reality of each and every human life; it manifests itself in different ways, and in our pursuit of holiness, we must submit our will to God and battle against our vices. Even though we as Christians may fundamentally disagree with same-sex marriage, we must still treat the individuals involved as human people, made in the Image of God. In her mystical treatise Dialogue of Divine Providence, Saint Catherine of Siena urged for compassion instead of judgment: “you must not respond with judgment but with holy compassion.”1 Perhaps our great concern with same-sex marriage should not be the endless theological debates about it, but rather a concern for abstention from judgment. After all, Jesus himself commanded in the Gospel according to Saint Matthew, “Do not judge so that you will not be judged…Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own?” (Matt. 7:1, 3).2

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[1] Saint Catherine of Siena, Dialogue of Divine Providence, 191.

[2] American Standard Version. [/wpex]

Laura Ehlen

Senior Editor at Conciliar Post


Charles Heyworth_75pxCharles Heyworth

Author at Conciliar Post


The popular divide over same sex marriage reveals an underlying problem with the definition of marriage. Divorce and premarital sex were early symptoms of this problem and by now certain Christians have found Biblical license for both of them. I am sure that given enough time we can also rationalize Biblical approval for most kinds of relational and sexual behaviors. Thus, the current debate over homosexual behavior was over before it even began. Now, the continuing battle to prevent people with same-sex relationships from committing to each other in marriage has more potential to damage the institution of marriage than to discourage certain kinds of sexual behavior.

The contemporary celebration of marriage for most people has nothing to do with the fact that the newly married couple will engage in sexual behavior, but that they have chosen to commit their lives to each other. People will express their sexuality as they choose, with or without a marriage covenant. The celebration and legalization of any marriage is not so much one of sexual expression as of the creation of a new, stable, cultural unit: a family. As such, Christians must be careful to keep the argument against homosexual behavior (which we have already lost) from becoming a fight against marriage itself.

If one good thing comes from the debate over same-sex marriage it will be a more clearly defined understanding that marriage is a commitment to pursue one-ness with another individual, not a license for sexual activity. The role of the church then will be to define the form of marriage that will maximize the potential of this unique relationship. Until we can discover and demonstrate a form of marriage worth pursuing, it will be difficult to limit its possible variations.

Charles Heyworth

Author at Conciliar Post


StuartKerr_75pxStuart Kerr

Author at Conciliar Post


The divide on same-sex marriage is deep, but there is one point where, I believe, there ought to be agreement: same-sex marriage should not be regulated by government. Note, I did not say that homosexual unions should be legalized, because there should not be a legalization process. Scripture confirms that marriage is an agreement between one man, one woman, and God.

Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh (Gen. 2:24).

Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the LORD hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth (Mal. 2:14a).

It is fairly obvious that in this definition I left no room for two men or two women, but notice what else is not present in this arrangement. There is no mention of government, of any sort, or of any level, that is a part of the marriage vows. Neither the bride nor the groom makes a pledge to love and cherish their Congressman or Senator, and the government’s interference is unnecessary in the issues that relate to marriage; taxation, inheritance, and legal guardianship of dependents can be handled without the state’s involvement in marriage. Protection of the bonds of holy matrimony belongs to the Church, not the state.

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[1] All Scripture quotations, unless otherwise indicated, are taken from the King James Version. KJV. Public Domain.[/wpex]

Stuart Kerr

Author at Conciliar Post


JacobPrahlow_75pxJacob Prahlow

Managing Editor at Conciliar Post


In the space allotted here, I want to touch on three specific aspects of the current same-sex marriage debate: the continuing role of religious freedom, the place of emotion, and the need for Christian love.

First, as outlined by Ephraim Radner, formerly political discussions about same-sex marriage are quickly moving into the religious sphere. Therefore, we must quickly clarify to what extent the State may assert that those religiously opposed to same-sex marriage must affirm such unions. Proponents of same-sex marriage often talk about the rights and freedoms of the LGBT community; in discussing those rights, we must remain careful not to infringe upon the religious freedom of those opposed to same-sex marriage. As N. T. Wright notes, traditional Christian faith has affirmed for nearly two thousand years that “marriage” has constituted one man and one woman. Deeply concerning are international trends which dictate that Christian churches must allow same-sex weddings to which they are opposed.

Second, we need to seriously consider how emotions impact our thinking about same-sex marriage. Fully recognizing that social media does not provide the best insight into thoughtful discourse, it is nonetheless concerning to see the prevalence of “love wins”, “why can’t people be free to love?”, and other similar sentiments commonly expressed as the impetus for why same-sex marriage is morally right. I remain deeply suspicious that feelings and emotionally based claims about something important as marriage can be substantiated; how is it that doing something in the name of eros (desire) now means that action is necessarily moral and right?

Third, there is a need for love as we think about same-sex marriage, namely Christian love for all of humanity. Those in support of traditional marriage must lovingly state their positions and lovingly engage those opposed to their views (i.e., no more Westboro Baptist). Speaking in love does not mean abandoning the truth, but instead charitably and honestly engaging those with whom we disagree. In contrast to the “loving and affirming” mindset, we need to embrace a “loving and open” mentality. And above all else, we must not forget that no one, least of all myself, is free from sin. Timothy Ware speaks of this perspective:

“Still less can the Church give its approval to sexual unions between persons of the same sex. But in all specific cases of homosexuality we should of course seek to show the utmost pastoral sensitivity and generous compassion. ‘A brother who had committed a sin was drive out from the church by the priest. But Abba Bessarion rose up and when out with him, saying: ‘I too am a sinner.’” [1]

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[1] Timothy Ware. The Orthodox Church: New Edition. Penguin Book: London, 1997. 296.[/wpex]

 Jacob Prahlow

Managing Editor at Conciliar Post

Author at Pursuing Veritas


Jeff-Reid_75pxJeff Reid

Author at Conciliar Post


Same Sex Marriage is a contentious topic, in part, because it touches directly on the conflict between our desire for autonomy and the Bible’s claim for God’s authority. For the Church, this has lead to a new round of discussions regarding the Bible’s instruction on Same Sex Marriage. Consequently, this would be an excellent opportunity to review how we interpret the Bible (hermeneutics if you want to use technical terminology). I apologize in advance that this is a brief overview and lacking in nuance. At the same time, I hope it helps set a foundation for ongoing discussions concerning what Scripture says.

Towards that end, I’ll present the facets which make up the interpretation process and then briefly illustrate them in looking at the question of Same Sex Marriage. There are four basic facets in a person’s interpretation of Scripture, each of which can be characterized with a question:

  1. Clear meaning – what does a given text say?
  2. Internal consistency – how does the rest of scripture impact our understanding of the text?
  3. Historical context – did the authors use their terms the same way we do?

4.Historical interpretation – has the Church historically interpreted the text in a uniform way?

Applying these principles to Genesis 2:24, one comes away with the following conclusions. The text implies that marriage relationships are intrinsically heterosexual. This is confirmed by similar uses of terminology by Christ in Matthew 19:5 and Mark 10:7-8, as well as Paul in Ephesians 5:22-33. There is no indication that the verbiage in any of these passages would have an other than normal meaning for their authors. Finally, this interpretation matches what the Church has historically concluded. Given this information, we would conclude that, Biblically speaking, marriage is a relationship that can only involve a man and a woman.

Jeff Reid

Author at Conciliar Post

Author at A Pilgrim Theologian


Michael Shelton 75pxMichael Shelton

Author at Conciliar Post


I view marriage as both a legal institution, a contractual union between individuals that bestows certain legal advantages (sometimes called a civil union), and a sacramental institution, God’s union of one man and one woman that serves as a visible sign of the invisible life of God and His Church. There is an overlap between the two since the latter often precedes the former, but I think they are distinct institutions that frequently share the same name even though they are not equal.

Much like divorce, I cannot reconcile same-sex marriage (or any such institution not between one man and one woman) with Scripture or with what the Catholic Church has said on the matter. Therefore, I do not recognize any claims to the sacramental institution by same-sex couples, even if they are celebrated by Christian ministers. However, without appealing to my religious beliefs (since I believe strongly in a separation of Church and State), I cannot honestly oppose legalizing same-sex marriage because I haven’t found any of the “natural” arguments against changing the legal definition convincing enough. In fact, in light of the Gospel, I think distinguishing the sacrament of Holy Matrimony from its legal form makes it that much more special.

Michael Shelton

Author at Conciliar Post


ChristSmith 75px

Chris Smith

Author at Conciliar Post


The issue of same-sex marriage has deeply divided American Christianity over the past decade. Before offering my own perspective on this issue, a little personal background is necessary. I come from a very small tight-knit family consisting of my mother, one brother, my grandmother, and my aunt – who just so happens to be gay. My aunt was always around during my childhood, living with us part of the time, other times babysitting my brother and I or taking us to the movies. Because of this, I have known and interacted with gay people throughout my life. Based on these interactions over the course of my thirty-six years on this earth, I firmly believe that some people are born gay. For me, this is the starting point for any pondering of issues pertaining to homosexuality. To be sure, I see the issue of homosexuality as more complex than the choice vs. nature debate. There are definitely some who choose that lifestyle and, I would argue, many that do not. Thus, I support same-sex marriage for those who cannot change who they are.

This is not an issue I push very hard on. I have no desire to divide the Church any further on this issue. Furthermore, I refuse to condemn Christians for opposing same-sex marriage or call them “bigots.” I also will continue to support any responsible legislation that protects the rights of small-business owners (bakeries, photographers, florists, etc.) who do not wish to participate in same-sex ceremonies on religious grounds. The day is coming when same-sex marriage will be legal across this nation from coast to coast and those who remain opposed must have the freedom to live out their faith as they see fit. I only ask that Christians who oppose same-sex marriage offer me the same respect by not accuse me of capitulating to culture, surrendering to moral relevancy, or not “believing” in the Bible. As a Christian, I do not affirm non-monogamous relationships of any type, gay or straight. Nor do I affirm polygamy, “sleeping around,” or bisexuality. I also continue to believe in the virgin birth, ministry, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as outlined in the Bible. My support for same-sex marriage comes from my deeply-held conviction that some were really “born that way.”

Chris Smith

Author at Conciliar Post

Author at Reimagining Cordoba


Nicholai Stuckwisch _75Nicholai Stuckwisch

Author at Conciliar Post


I want to focus on what I feel is the most pressing issue of the debate and the compromise/suggestion that I’ve personally reached. In addition to fighting for general acceptance of their lifestyle and beliefs, the homosexual community wants to see same-sex marriage legalized because of the benefits the law provides married couples, These benefits include jail and hospital visitation rights, social security benefits, tax benefits, and family rate insurance discounts, among other things. All of the above are legal rights that don’t directly relate to a biblical definition of marriage at all, but can have a significant impact on the financial and personal lives of our country’s citizens.

Despite the fact that I cannot condone homosexuality with my faith, I do not think it is fair or in line with the philosophy of our country and a proper separation of church and state to deny these rights to same-sex couples. I do believe the marriage is ordained by God to be a union between one man and one woman, but homosexuals and homosexual couples are still human beings, for whom Christ died upon the cross, and citizens of this country, whose rights were paid for by the blood of the men and women in our military.

The only solution that I have been able to comfortably reach is the legal rights currently afforded to married couples should extend to any couples who have chosen to live with each other long term. This would obviously include married men and women as well as same-sex couples, but I could easily see it including heterosexual adults friends who have chosen to live celibate lives in the company of a friend. My primary concern is that God’s law is upheld to the greatest extent possible in this fallen world and that the church continue to cling fast to His Word, but I am also concerned with ensuring that the legal, political, and human rights of others are not infringed upon or taken away.

Nicholai Stuckwisch

Author at Conciliar Post


NOTE ON COMMENTING

As noted above, these perspectives are intentionally brief, and are intended as starting places for serious, faithful, and civil discussion about same-sex marriage. We ask that you remember this in your comments. Please keep comments on topic, civil, and as specific as possible. When addressing a specific perspective, please indicate at the beginning of your comment who you are addressing. Thank you in advance for your questions, insights, and for honoring Christ through your dialogue.

34 responses to “Round Table: Same-Sex Marriage”

  1. Rich Sullivan Avatar
    Rich Sullivan

    Wow, this is a topic dear to my heart. Having raised 4 sons and 1 daughter, and having taught middle school, high school, and college for over 35 years, I have come to realize that the more I “learn” the more I realize how much I don’t know. I grew up heavily swayed by my parents views and prejudices. It is only by the Grace of God that I have been able to break from that upbringing and search my own being for some understanding on this. I and my family have read numerous books on the topic starting with “How Will I tell My Mother” on the early end but more recently these books: “Washed and Waiting”, “Is God anti-Gay”, “Love Is An Orientation”, “Torn”, and most recently “A Letter To My Congregation”. I highly recommend the last 3 books especially. The bottom line for me was reinforced today when I read a clip from Max Lucado’s book: “God’s Grace”. Grace is an amazing thing that we all want to receive but few want to truly give. We tend to put conditions on showing God’s Grace to people. My previously clouded view has become quite clear: I am commanded to Love. If I wish to judge anyone it should be judging my own poor performance in not Loving and showing Grace.

  2. Chris Cam Smith Avatar
    Chris Cam Smith

    Thanks to all the authors for the very thoughtful, heartfelt, and faithful comments on a very difficult issue! The vast array of views expressed here shows how far we’ve come and that we indeed have much to discuss.

    1. Ben Cabe Avatar

      Chris, thanks for your contribution to this Round Table discussion. I agree with you that people can be born attracted to members of the same-sex. It seems to me that, upon acceptance of this fact, we must ask if being born a certain way (e.g. attracted to members of the same-sex) makes acting on such impulses acceptable. For me, I view it in a similar sense as David Brown mentioned below. We are all born with tendencies to different things. I have a tendency to get angry—I was not born attracted to men. I would be interested in knowing if you think that sexual expression within a same-sex relationship is a permissible, and even blessed, form of the sexual expression.

  3. Nicholai Stuckwisch Avatar
    Nicholai Stuckwisch

    I think the most helpful and important distinction made here is the difference between a legal/civil definition of marriage and the definition of marriage we are given my God through the Scripture. They are two different things, and I think Michael, Jacob, and Ben especially did a good job of examining and exploring this distinction in a helpful and constructive way.

    I also appreciate Jacob’s distinction between different kinds of love; I think Eros is too often used as a justification for actions that really can’t be justified, and as I think many people are also to quick to judge strong companionships and comradery between friends of the same sex as being homosexual and based on Eros.

    Thanks to everyone contributing in a respectful, courteous, and intelligent manner.

  4. Jacob Avatar
    Jacob

    Nicholai,
    Thanks for your general outline above. I am very interested in hearing any additional (and/or more specific) thoughts on your proposal to extend legal rights to (what seems like) effectively all adult persons who live in the same structure. Do you have any further thoughts on how that might be implemented, if there would be any restrictions, what types of legal rights you are extending to such persons? I am fascinated by this suggestion, and look forward to hearing more. Thanks.
    Jacob

    1. Nicholai Stuckwisch Avatar
      Nicholai Stuckwisch

      Jacob, it may take a few days for me to put together an adequate response because I’m doing a lot of moving to and fro, but when I get the opportunity, I would be happy to expand my thoughts further.

      For the time being hopefully this will help a bit.

      In some ways I agree with the idea that the government shouldn’t necessarily be handing or controlling legal rights associated with marriage/civil unions at all, but I don’t think that completely elimination tax exemptions, jail/hospital visitation rights, and co-signing rights is a realistic or necessarily solution. In light of that, I think it is not entirely in line with the separation of church and state or the philosophy that we are supposed to be a free country for the government to establish certain privileges for specific groups of people that have chosen to make, or not to make, certain life decisions like living with or marrying another person. While I would be open to hearing a dissenting opinion, I don’t understand what compelling reason the government could have to give these kinds of benefits to married couples but not other individuals that have chosen to live together.

      If visitation rights, tax breaks, and other benefits currently offered to married couples in most places are going to exist within our legal system, I think their either needs to be an explanation for why married couples specifically deserve this right or the acceptance that married couples, same-sex couples, siblings or other relatives living with each other, and heterosexual individuals cohabiting should all receive the same rights.

      Hopefully I will have time to sketch out a better of picture of how I could see this being implemented and what all I think it would entail in the near future, but perhaps this made my overall stance a bit clearer.

      Thanks for the question Jacob, and I’ll get back to you as soon as possible.

      ~Nick

      1. Jacob Avatar
        Jacob

        Nick,
        Thanks for responding, I appreciate it. As I read and reflect upon your response, I am listening to Bishop Kallistos of the Orthodox Church speak about marriage in the early Church, marriages which took place, of course, within the context of the Roman Empire, where the picture of “rights” (recognizing the anachronism of that term) was in important ways parallel to your suggestions. Perhaps a shift to “household” language would encompass all of these life situations… Regardless, I greatly appreciate your thoughts on this issue. You’ve given me much to reflect upon.
        Best, Jacob

      2. Nicholai Stuckwisch Avatar
        Nicholai Stuckwisch

        I think the use of the term household is a good one Jacob.

        By extending these rights to all adults who have been members of the same household for a certain period of time you are ensuring that there is some kind of familial or communal connection between the people earning the rights while removing and kind of religious, racial, gender based variable from the equation.

        I think part of the purpose for having these rights it to encourage family units because they are good for the community.

        As far the kinds of rights being afforded, I think tax cuts are not entirely reasonable, but visitation rights, the right to co-sign legal/medical papers (I have a gay friend whose partner was recently Ina serious auto accident that prevented him from being able to use his hands. If they were not legally married he would not have been able to sign insurance papers or help with much of the accident aftermath because he would have been classified as an acquaintance.), and other rights that allow individuals to care for each other, or be informed about each others’ conditions in the case of an accident or arrest would all be reasonable rights to extend to household members.

        I imagine that, in addition to a required amount of time under the same roof, there would have to be some signed agreement ensuring that everyone in the household actually desired for others to have that kind of a connection and influence.

  5. George Aldhizer Avatar
    George Aldhizer

    Molly, thanks for your willingness to contribute to what looks above to be a mostly conservative (theologically and politically) response to the question. I applaud your exhortation for the church to openly discuss gender and sexuality. It seems to me, as Christians who believe in the resurrection of the body, there will be gender and bodies for eternity, and so a lack of discussion around bodies is a lack of vision for eternity. So thank you for that statement.

    What I want to ask you is what do you think of a (I admit this is mostly a hypothetical here, few theologically conservative churches are talking about these things it seems) church that openly discusses issues of gender and sexuality, openly welcoming all into its doors, discussing the perils of fat shaming and rape culture and homophobia and sexist gender constructions etc etc, that do so in a context which upholds a traditional Christian sexual ethic (man-woman marriage as the proper context for sexual activity)? I’m thinking of academic communities such as Christians for Biblical Equality (cbeinternational.org) and Spiritual Friendship (spiritualfriendship.org) that believe in the traditional Christian ethic, yet seek to promote healthy discussions of gender and sexuality that you so long to see in churches.

    1. Molly Bolton Avatar
      Molly Bolton

      Hey George –

      Thanks for your thoughtful response, sorry I am just now seeing it! I think about your question often and have many thoughts, but no real answer. Wanna come to Cleveland and have a beer with me, so we can talk it over??

      Your question, it seems, comes back to what we say in divinity school is at the core of most theological arguments – the understanding/use of scripture. It seems to me that if a community of faith is integrating current philosophical/psychological/scientific gender and sexuality scholarship into their education, the thing that would be standing in their way on being open to same-sex relationships is scripture and religious tradition.

      For me, part of education would involve understanding how gender essentialism is tied into violence against women, male depression, ect. I am not sure how one can reconcile Christianity’s role in perpetuating the deadly implications of gender essentialism and uphold “traditional marriage” at the
      same time…

      These are a few thoughts that I have. But I am not good at meeting in the middle. Maybe I should work on that.

      1. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Thanks for your response Molly. Certainly you are right, different uses of scripture/tradition will mean different things. I love this opportunity to, like you said, meet in the middle, understanding where we may differ while at the same time seeing where we can learn from each other. I sure wish the option to chat about this over a beer was a possibility.

        After having read your response a few times, I think we are operating under different interpretations of what “discussing gender and sexuality” and upholding “traditional marriage” would look like in the modern church context.

        As for the first, I am all for utilizing modern gender and sexuality scholarship within the church. In fact, I think having real dialogue around concepts like “gender is a social construct” could really challenge people/denominations who speak about women’s roles in the home and men’s roles out in the workplace. Indeed, I think that sort of reflection would challenge many conservative’s interpretations of scripture (don’t Proverbs 31 and Romans 16, etc. describe female entrepreneurs??). I think, however, and this is probably where we differ, is that scholarship must be held under the authority of the revealed word of God.

        And I think this opens up opportunities where there would be real opportunities for genuine Christian engagement in/with Women’s and Gender Studies departments, etc. I’m thinking of contributions such as the telos of human sexuality (I’m thinking of Catholic contributions of unity and procreation in the male/female sex act), the necessity for sexuality AND celibacy to be celebrated in community (rarely, it seems, is celibacy upheld as a legitimate lifestyle choice in both churches and the academy), and the primacy of children when discussing sexuality (sex is not merely a super-gesture of “I love you” but as an openness to new life). It seems to me that Christians, rather than merely “integrating current scholarship,” as you say, should be reading these scholars in light of revealed truth, seeing how their contributions urge us to sometimes integrate, and sometimes counter with a robust Christian view of sexuality.

        As for the second, I’m with you. I think there is much harm in a LOT of Christian’s engagement with gender and sexuality. Incredibly damaging views of gender essentialism (such as the ones I and you noted above) are truly unbiblical. I don’t think, as you seem to suggest, that the gender essentialism that is so often propagated in churches is necessary to uphold “traditional marriage.”

        I think what would most strongly deal with the problems of gender essentialism you note above is for the church to view sexuality as strongly tied to community. I think this is where the Reformed view on families (and infant baptism as a corollary) is so important, for the church to work alongside the family to raise the child. Furthermore, a robust appreciation for the vocation of celibacy is just as (if not more so, read 1 Cor. 7) important than the importance of appreciating families.

        Sorry, this is a lot, I really like talking about this, if you can’t tell. Primarily because I do think Christians have done gender/sexuality talk very poorly, and this is an opportunity for churches to be counter-cultural to the individualism of modern sexuality, countering with a robust view community with the single person in celibacy, the primacy of the child, the telos of sexuality, and the rallying around families.

        I guess I should ask, where would you differ/agree in my proposal and what do you see as a way in which churches should go about discussing gender and sexuality?

      2. Guest Avatar
        Guest

        Molly, thanks for your response. I wish the opportunity to talk this over a beer was a real one. I hope you are doing well in Cleveland, I guess you’re something of a LeBron, heading to Cleveland after winning a couple of championships in Winston.

        I think we are operating with two different views on integrating scholarship and on what traditional marriage is to be upheld. Like you said, much of these discussions will hinge on our use/authoritativeness of scripture.

        Rather than having churches merely “integrate current scholarship,” I’m thinking of churches appreciating the benefits that come from the scholarship of gender studies departments, while holding scripture to be the authoritative voice that holds primacy over secular scholarship. I think there are some very important implications of this framework for today’s church. First, gender scholarship challenges our interpretations of the text. It baffles me, when, like you note above, Christians believe women’s role is in the home and the man’s is in the workplace. This dualism didn’t exist in the world of the Old and New Testaments. Furthermore, we have women being “co-workers” with Paul, women entrepreneurs (Proverbs 31), female judges, etc etc. The stark insight of much of the “gender is a social construct” literature challenges our importation of modern social life into the text.

        Second, and most importantly, I think Christians, coming from there own traditions, have much to say within/for gender studies. I can think of three. First, the primacy of the child. So much discussion about gender/sexuality does not recognize that heterosexual sex has consequences, and that society benefits when there is a strong marriage culture in which to raise these kids (kids deserve a mother and a father and our policies should promote this). Second, having a discussion about the telos of sexuality. So much discussion surrounding sex revolves around my individual desires rather than what sex is created for. Notice how this leaves out the child in the discussion. I’m thinking here primarily of the catholic contribution to this discussion, that sex is for both unifying the genders and for procreation. Third, the church promoting celibacy as a viable and vocational lifestyle. Paul’s contribution here of raising the single woman (there is no male and female) to cultural viability is so important to a society that sees sexuality as the only means of fulfillment, and of a church culture that tends to leave singles (particularly gay ones) out to dry. The implication of this that is so counter cultural is the Christian view that sexuality is a communal process. Rather than being an individual decision, the church is about celebrating sexuality and the families that result (think of the marital ceremony as being a public proclamation and of infant baptism as calling the entire church accountable to the raising of the child). This, again, has implications for singles who, in today’s culture, tend to not have an immediate community that the church can supplant.

        These are my thoughts haha. Sorry this is long, I’d love to keep talking about it if you have the time. I think the church has done a poor job thinking and engaging with gender and sexuality, when it seems to me, they have much to offer to the current culture.

      3. Guest Avatar
        Guest
  6. David Brown Avatar
    David Brown

    In my understanding, the Church Fathers have always recognized the inherent or congenital nature of same-sex-attraction in a significant minority of people. In today’s mindset, it would be easy to want to encourage people with same-sex-attraction to pursue their true selves and fulfill their desires and pursue a committed, lifelong, loving, socially recognized relationship: “marriage.” Indeed, I want to be able to do that. However, all of our “true selves” are bent and broken (we were meant to live for so much more). We are all called to return to our true true-selves, that which we were created to be: in union and common union with the Trinity, the ultimate reality. If one desires to join himself or herself to Christ and the Church (for the two are one), and partake upon the Theotic journey, then they are called to overcome and, via the Holy Spirits healing work, transform whatever inherent or congenital bent nature they have (and we all have passions as the Fathers refer to our bentness) into the divine nature of Christ-God. I have so many passions and so many illnesses and sicknesses (sin is a condition rather than a violation of a moral code) of my own to worry about, I have no business looking to the left or to the right. So, how would I respond to someone wanting my opinion on same-sex marriage or same-sex love? It depends on whether or not that person is desirous of participating in the life of the Church or not. If yes, check with your spiritual guide/Father, but (right along with everyone else), some changes are probably gonna have to be made. It not, I am the chief of sinners, pray for me and God bless you. Something like that, anyway. Forgive me.

    1. Ben Cabe Avatar

      Dave, thanks for this comment. I was thinking something similar concerning the “congenital nature of same-sex attraction” with regard to Chris’ contribution. What you said about sin being a sickness (and not a violation of a moral code) is very important. So thank you for adding this! I suppose I should pose my next question to Chris.

      1. Chris Cam Smith Avatar
        Chris Cam Smith

        Dave and Ben, I hope I can join in the dialogue here. As someone with a deep interest in Orthodox theology, I appreciate both of your perspectives on this subject. Ultimately, I draw a distinction between someone being born with a neurological makeup that makes them gay and someone who was born straight, but may have some tendencies towards same-sex attraction. This is why I reject bisexuality as a valid category. The vast majority of us are born straight and a very small minority seem to be born gay. This seems to have remained fairly stable throughout history, which is astounding and points us away from viewing homosexuality as some sort of disease or some cultural phenomena. Only the good Lord can know why this is. One hypothetical example would be a child born with both male and female genitalia, but has the neurological makeup of a girl, yet the parents choose to operate and make the child a boy because that is what they want. Naturally, the child is going to grow up exhibiting girl-like behavior and most likely be attracted to boys as they enter adulthood. The child could experience emotional trauma from being a “girl trapped in a boy’s body.” Of course, that is a rare example, but it is illustrative of the problem. A child could be born with female reproductive organs, but a male neurological makeup. I believe it is unfair double-standard to tell heterosexuals they can participate in a loving relationship with a partner, but tell someone who was born gay they have to abstain from all romantic relationships whether sexual activity is involved or not. And by born gay I mean someone that absolutely appalled and disgusted to the idea of having a romantic relationship with someone of the opposite sex, but is attracted to those of the same sex. I’ve known several people like this. Being asked to repress this part of themselves is extremely unhealthy and has led many to commit suicide. On the other hand, many of those who have been accepted by their friends and families and have found accepting communities have gone on to leave very healthy lives. This is why I am vehemently opposed to so-called “conversion therapy,” especially those sponsored by Christian organizations. Those methods have cause far more harm than good. So to sum up here, what I define as being “born gay” is far different than other so-called “natural” tendencies to sinful behavior. I don’t believe it is the same thing as man natural tendency to greed and selfishness.

      2. Benjamin Cabe Avatar

        Chris, thanks for the comment. I also am opposed to conversion therapy. The real question I suppose we must ask is, is there a natural order the aberration from which could cause harm to our being? I believe in order to address such issues we are forced to bring in the facet of same-sex sexual activity. The Orthodox Church has maintained that same-sex relationships are perfectly okay provided they do not cross the boundary of sexual activity—after all, my relationship with Dave or you is a same-sex relationship. The Church, after all, has a long history of friendship. But where such relationships involve sexual expression of any kind the Church has maintained that this is an aberration from the created order.

        But it doesn’t stop there . . .The Church does not condone sexual activity at all outside of marriage—and by marriage we mean the sacrament. But marriage between two persons of the same-sex (in the sense of the sacrament) is not a possibility—it doesn’t work that way . . . Even if the couple is granted the “legal status of marriage” it does not change the reality.

        A few things to consider: sex does not define a person. Whether a person is engaged in sexual activity or not is not the telos of human life. Sexual activity is not necessary for life—the only instance in which sexual activity could be considered necessary for life is for the furtherance of human kind through procreation. Also, a romantic relationship with another person is not necessary for life—neither is it impossible to live a completely chaste life, devoted to God. This is evidenced by the saints and is, according to St. Paul, a better vocation than marriage because married persons are forced (in a sense) to be concerned about things of this world whereas monks can be devoted totally to God. This is a concept totally foreign to our society today; rife with sexual imagery masked as “romance” and “true erotic” love.

        This is not to say that marriage is bad or not condoned by the Church; it’s a sacrament! St. John Chrysostom carries a heraldic tone when speaking of marriage.

        Sexual activity within the context of marriage takes on a kind of perichoresis which is an icon of the trinity: true self giving in every instance . . . One man, one woman, giving themselves totally to each other . . . and then a miracle happens . . . a third person proceeds from the womb. Unfortunately, even within the context of Christian marriage, sexual activity takes on the form of lust and thus is a perversion of true expression. In that past few years books on marriage (and sexual activity) within evangelical circles have become strikingly popular—Real Marriage by Mark Driscoll is one instance of this. A controversial portion of his book is on sexual expression where he completely deconstructs a tradition understanding of proper sexual union. The fact is, we don’t like being told something is not beneficial. Sex becomes what pleases “me” and thus fetishism is formed—which is centered around certain items or acts that have nothing to do with the person.

        When we talk about someone who is born with an attraction to members of the same-sex we do not encourage them to suppress those feelings but rather to give themselves totally over to God. To surrender. This is, essentially, the entire goal of the human life. To surrender completely to God.

        Forgive me for how long this comment is. I’m not sure if it is even cohesive. The point is that there is so much more here than we so often think. I have not even begun touch on it. Forgive me.

      3. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I responded to this but it’s not appearing! Oh no! Did you see it at all? If not I will try to replicate what I said in a day or so.

      4. Chris Cam Smith Avatar
        Chris Cam Smith

        Yeah, I saw it earlier but it seems to have disappeared. Maybe it will pop back up. Crazy tech probs…

      5. Chris Cam Smith Avatar
        Chris Cam Smith

        Ben, your other response was up this morning but now is gone again for some strange reason. So I was going to post a few thoughts on that. I fully understand that the Orthodox Church’s views on marriage and sexuality and how they create a wall for accepting gays as members of the Church. I realize that the Orthodox Church will probably be the last in the world to accept homosexuality. As I continue to explore Orthodoxy, I realize this will be an area where I will always disagree. This is why in my contribution I said I do not wish to push hard on this. I will not make any efforts to change any churches stand until they are ready to change themselves. I take solace in the fact that the gay community has many church option right now, including the one my family was attending here in NC. One of the things that I have always found problematic about Christianity is its somewhat “puritanical” (maybe not the best word here, but it was the only one I could think of at the moment) stance on sexuality. I’m not talking about one particular denomination or another, I’m talking about the whole Church throughout history. While it is true that one can live a life of celibacy and I respect those that choose that path, I don’t really consider it “better” or more “holy.” Of course, I am disagreeing with St. Paul, one of the cornerstones of the Church, here (Lord have mercy on me) and I indeed have no authority to do so. But, I just don’t see sexuality as something negative or “dirty” provided it is kept within the bounds of two people who love each other. I find the idea of radical asceticism quite strange. We should eat and sleep enough to be healthy, but not fall into the trap of sloth or gluttony. This is why I appreciate the idea of fasting in the Orthodox Church. It helps keep our minds on God but also teaches us moderation in eating. Why don’t we consider gluttony a sin in American/Western culture? As far as sex goes, it takes a very special person to live a life of celibacy. I could never do it. Most of us couldn’t. That is why so many conservative Christians marry so young, so that they can have sex within proper religious bounds. I feel that very often heterosexual Christians who are married and get to enjoy sexual relations with their partners sit back and tell gays they have to remain celibate. It just seems like a terrible double standard. It reminds me of politically-conservative white Americans telling blacks to stop talking about race and that their skin color doesn’t define them. It’s easy to tell a gay person “sex doesn’t define you” as a straight person. It’s easy to tell a black person “race doesn’t define you” as a white person. But unfortunately, both gays and blacks have been forced to identify themselves according to those characteristics because others have set them apart from the rest. No matter how hard we try, we can never fully understand the experiences of those people because we have not been “othered” into those categories. This is why I personally reject arguments that gays should remain celibate regardless of whether they were somehow “born gay” or not. I do not see human sexuality as something that needs to be repressed, but it does need to remain in proper bounds (between two individuals that love each other and are appropriately aged of course). I am equally annoyed by liberal arguments against “slut-shaming” – if you sleep around with multiple partners with no indiscretion, you should feel shame.

      6. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Chris, thank you again for your comments here. I would like to address a few of your comments.

        • Member of the Orthodox Church that are born attracted to members of the same-sex can receive the Eucharist provided they are attempting to resist sexual urges. This is similar to young men who may be struggling to remain chaste and not have sex outside of the context of marriage.

        • The reason for barring the Eucharist from people who are behaving in certain manners for primarily pastoral—it is for their wellbeing not to participate in the Eucharist if they are practicing same-sex sexual relations or sexual activity outside of marriage and/or masturbation. This flows from a deep understanding of the reality of the Eucharist.

        • The Church has not maintained—with exceptions of certain Fathers, of course, notably Augustin, Eustathius (who we condemned as a heretic)—that sexual union is dirty or tainted. A good book to read on the history of this subject is Fr. Lawrence Farley’s, One Flesh: Salvation Through Marriage in the Orthodox Church. Sexual union must, however, we practiced within the proper context.

        • Gluttony and slothfulness are sins! And yes, we often tier sins into (greater / lesser sins) and a lot of the sins that are considered to be lesser in offense often get forgotten altogether. The truth is comparing sin is impossible. (For more on this check out my article on http://www.BenCabe.com/blog about this).

        • As Christians we must be very careful not to be humanistic naturalists. Definitely we should take care of our bodies but we should also note that extreme asceticism as you termed it, when practiced for the right reasons, actually aids in our health. Take Saint Mary of Egypt as an example . . . She spent 40 several decades in the desert . . . Scarce food and drink . . .

        • Anything that we allow to “define us” that is not “Christ” is an aberration from a proper Christian worldview. For in him there is neither Jew nor Gentile, male nor female etc.

        You mentioned the ultimate point: where do we find and verify these epistemic claims. It is my personal opinion that the Church, Tradition, Scripture, and witness of the Church Fathers are where we find it.

      7. Chris Cam Smith Avatar
        Chris Cam Smith

        Thank you for clarifying the Orthodox Church’s approach to offering communion to gay members. I appreciate that perspective. I did get a chance to read your post on comparing sins and I thought it was excellent. I admit, I still have a difficult time not placing sins on levels. I’m sure it is something we all struggle with. I must also admit, I have been amazed that some ascetics have remained so healthy despite getting so little sleep and eating so little. I think about the monks of Mt. Athos who have virtually no cancer or heart disease. God bless them and accept their prayers for us!

      8. Chris Cam Smith Avatar
        Chris Cam Smith

        Ben, that long-winded response was in no means directed at you specifically. Those are just things I’ve been thinking about for some time but have not had the forum or opportunity to speak about until now. I know this is a very difficult and touchy subject for Christians to talk about. This round-table has been a great way to tease out these ideas and thoughts…

      9. David Brown Avatar
        David Brown

        Chris and Ben, thanks for a great conversation. I pray that I will be more compassionate, more sensitive, and more loving to all those around me through this conversation. In the end, I hope to be made right, rather than to be right. Something like that anyway.

      10. David Brown Avatar
        David Brown

        I will say that when I used the term “congenital same-sex attraction” that I was saying the same thing you were saying with “being born gay.” From history and sources more reliable than me, I think there are and have been a significant minority of people who are “born gay.” (What that percentage is, I don’t know. Sociological estimates vary, probably, but I don’t have any reference on that.) So we agree on that. Two Orthodox writers/thinkers/speakers that I have heard talk about this are Frederica Mathewes-Greene and Bishop Kallistos Ware. I don’t recall any specific references for their discussions (probably on Frederica.com), but what I do recall is how gently and humbly they approached the topic. I hope I do the same. I mainly have the same question you raised: why God? Surely, I don’t know.

        So if one is born gay (congenital same-sex attraction), does that have mean that person must be an active homosexual (monogamous or not) to be fulfilled? When we lived in Kenya as medical missionaries, we lived and worked along side several single missionaries (mostly single female nurses). Our Kenyan neighbors assumed they were all having sex (with men, as homosexuality is not on the Kenyan cultural radar screen, that inherent minority must remain silent). They just had to be, because it is not possible to not have sex. From the American missionary standpoint, our mindset was that, of course, they were celibate, and yet fulfilled. Does one have to have sex (or fill in the blank) to be fulfilled? (Maybe being fulfilled is the wrong endpoint or at least the wrong expression of the endpoint.) My point is that it is possible to be celibate, and to not be repressed, but fulfilled. Surely, it is not easy. But none of our paths to Theosis is easy, is it? But yet we have been promised an easy yoke. Hmmm….a mystery.

        I recall Bp. Kallistos sharing a pastoral situation. Somehow under his care were an elderly gay couple, and in his estimation, living a life of mutual, committed, love and affection. True love, if you will. Bp Kallistos did not deny this love, or ask them to cease living together. As I recall, what he did ask of them was to consider living their life together in a celibate fashion. Well that’s just not fair. How can you ask one person to give up who they are, who they were born to be, and not another, allowing the other person to pursue their God-given sexual desires? The point I feebly tried to make before was that all of us have our individual crosses to bear, spiritual battles to fight, passions to overcome, image to conform to His likeness. (…and the violent bear it away…) None of us is exempt from the commandment to be ye perfect. Yikes…

        How does being born gay differ from one’s tendencies to fornicate/steal/be selfish, etc. Maybe they are not in the same moral category, but I think that thinking comes from an ethos that is primarily juridical in nature as opposed to a medical or healing metaphor. We treat and hope for healing for both type I diabetics (essentially congenital) and COPD’ers (primarily self-inflicted). One group didn’t “deserve it” and the other did. Doesn’t really matter.

        In Orthodox spirituality, it is assumed that one is under the direction of a shepherd or spiritual guide. So from this perspective, it is really not a dodge for me to say it is not up to me to tell a person what they should or should not be doing. That is really between an individual and their Father/confessor. It is fair to say that the Orthodox Church does not condone homosexual behavior. That is a general blanket statement, but I think true. What is not fair is to make assumptions on what prescriptions a particular individual’s spiritual physician would prescribe at a particular point in time. It is a healing art.

        Conversely, I can’t just say what one does in their own personal private space and time doesn’t affect me or anyone else. We are all connected and what I do affects you and affects the whole world. (Granted, those closer to where I throw my pebble into the lake will get more ripples than those farther away.) We are all saved together.

        I am much better at asking questions than answering them. I have said too much. Forgive me.

      11. Chris Cam Smith Avatar
        Chris Cam Smith

        Dave, thank you for responding. I appreciate that your comments remained humble while at the same time stayed true to your beliefs. There is so much to admire about Orthodox spirituality. Orthodox Christians have a way of discussing this issue in way that upholds historical Christian views of morality, but yet remains very loving towards those who sin. Indeed, this entire discussion has been a breath of fresh air given that so many get reduced to name-calling and condemning people to hell. My family was yelled at by Westboro Baptist Church protesters one Sunday after leaving church. One of the boys was under 10 years old, telling us we were going to hell. It is truly sad when people use their children in such a way…

      12. Ben Cabe Avatar

        This was my original response:

        Chris, thanks for the comment. I also am opposed to conversion therapy. The real question I suppose we must ask is, is there a natural order the aberration from which could cause harm to our being? I believe in order to address such issues we are forced to bring in the facet of same-sex sexual activity. The Orthodox Church has maintained that same-sex relationships are perfectly okay provided they do not cross the boundary of sexual activity—after all, my relationship with Dave or you is a same-sex relationship. The Church, after all, has a long history of friendship. But where such relationships involve sexual expression of any kind the Church has maintained that this is an aberration from the created order.

        But it doesn’t stop there . . .The Church does not condone sexual activity at all outside of marriage—and by marriage we mean the sacrament. But marriage between two persons of the same-sex (in the sense of the sacrament) is not a possibility—it doesn’t work that way . . . Even if the couple is granted the “legal status of marriage” it does not change the reality.

        A few things to consider: sex does not define a person. Whether a person is engaged in sexual activity or not is not the telos of human life. Sexual activity is not necessary for life—the only instance in which sexual activity could be considered necessary for life is for the furtherance of human kind through procreation. Also, a romantic relationship with another person is not necessary for life—neither is it impossible to live a completely chaste life, devoted to God. This is evidenced by the saints and is, according to St. Paul, a better vocation than marriage because married persons are forced (in a sense) to be concerned about things of this world whereas monks can be devoted totally to God. This is a concept totally foreign to our society today; rife with sexual imagery masked as “romance” and “true erotic” love.

        This is not to say that marriage is bad or not condoned by the Church; it’s a sacrament! St. John Chrysostom carries a heraldic tone when speaking of marriage.

        Sexual activity within the context of marriage takes on a kind of perichoresis which is an icon of the trinity: true self giving in every instance . . . One man, one woman, giving themselves totally to each other . . . and then a miracle happens . . . a third person proceeds from the womb. Unfortunately, even within the context of Christian marriage, sexual activity takes on the form of lust and thus is a perversion of true expression. In that past few years books on marriage (and sexual activity) within evangelical circles have become strikingly popular—Real Marriage by Mark Driscoll is one instance of this. A controversial portion of his book is on sexual expression where he completely deconstructs a tradition understanding of proper sexual union. The fact is, we don’t like being told something is not beneficial. Sex becomes what pleases “me” and thus fetishism is formed—which is centered around certain items or acts that have nothing to do with the person.

        When we talk about someone who is born with an attraction to members of the same-sex we do not encourage them to suppress those feelings but rather to give themselves totally over to God. To surrender. This is, essentially, the entire goal of the human life. To surrender completely to God.

        Forgive me for how long this comment is. I’m not sure if it is even cohesive. The point is that there is so much more here than we so often think. I have not even begun touch on it. Forgive me.

  7. EG Avatar
    EG

    There are many issues that can’t be resolved because one side argues for something while the other side, refusing to accept the specified parameters, goes on to argue against something entirely different. To be sure, there is a great deal of equivocation within this issue, as there is with the abortion issue (where each side has a different definition of the term “human being”). Why can’t we just agree that the State should recognize same-sex marriage but the Church, at its own (privatized) discretion, does not need to follow suit? As touched on by some authors above, there is a nontrivial difference between legal and religious marriage–the function of the two terms is entirely different.

    Additionally, married heterosexual Christians arguing from a plateau of greater legal privilege is not a great starting point. But, in reality, this is how the debate takes place. It is much like a well-fed king saying to his poor subjects, “you might think you do, but you don’t really need the banquet that I have.” GLBT people are not fighting for the right to be recognized as sinless, holy, or acceptable by conservative political or religious standards. Instead, they simply desire equal privilege under the law for the specific notion of state-recognized, legally officiated, citizen witnessed, lifelong commitments. This isn’t a slippery slope leading to anything other than exactly what is being asked for–making the case that it is a stepping stone to some abhorrent new reality is simply creating a red herring or a straw man.

    1. Ben Cabe Avatar

      Thank you for this comment; you stated it very well. I agree with you. Same-sex couples should be granted equal privilege under the law etc. What do you think the implications would be, say, if three people wanted to get married (assuming that same-sex marriage is legalized as you mentioned) and have equal privilege etc.?

    2. Ben Cabe Avatar

      Thank you for this comment; you articulated it well. I agree with you. Same-sex couples should have equal legal benefits. If same-sex marriage were universally accepted among the United States what do you think the ramifications would be if three people decided they wanted to get married and have the same legal benefits?

      1. EG Avatar
        EG

        The ramifications for the people or the State? Three people getting married doesn’t even fit a current definition of marriage, which is an exclusive arrangement between two consenting adults of any kind. Like I was saying, these other imaginings have nothing to do with the same-sex debate. The average person fighting for GLBT marriage rights doesn’t have any more interest in three person marriage or man-animal marriage than the average person in favor of denying same-sex marriage rights. To say GLBT (or any) people are looking to this as a next step is ridiculous. In any case, if most people in the country wanted three person marriage (perhaps in the future it might be more functional–for instance if it becomes impossible for two average individuals to afford the time and monetary costs of childrearing as the world’s population skyrockets), it’s only right that this country, a representative republic, should allow it. We’re talking about laws here, not moral codes–these aren’t one and the same anymore. It isn’t the job of religion to target people on such a molar legal level, but instead on a molecular individual plane.

        If we look broadly at old and new Christian theology, we can see that this sort of preventative “thou shalt not” mindset is what dominated the Old Testament. And even then the sanctions only applied to the Jewish people–they didn’t try to impose them on others on some grand scale. Even so, the New Testament, which Christians today claim to be following, is more instructional in how it tells followers what they should be doing in a positive sense. It’s individual. The Bible doesn’t speak of the “lost herd,” but the “lost sheep.” You can’t go telling the State what it can and can’t do with its sheep–well you can, but only in the proper legal proportion (one vote for each).

      2. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Thank you! I appreciate your valuable contributions to this discussion!

    3. Micah Carlson Avatar
      Micah Carlson

      While I think I agree with you about same-sex marriage, I would be very careful not to conflate this issue with the abortion issue. Our government’s function is to protect our rights, not to uphold a particular code of morality. This we can be agreed on. However, if the Christians are right about same-sex marriage being “wrong” (in whatever sense of the word they might mean), still no one’s rights are violated by making same-sex marriage legal (unless we get really creative anthropomorphizing the “family unit,” which I am not interested in doing). There is no victim. If, however, the Christians are right about a fetus being a human being (whatever reasons they have for believing this notwithstanding), then abortion is murder, and the government must protect that human being’s right to life.

      1. EG Avatar
        EG

        Yes, I agree. I did not intend to compare the actual arguments involved in the abortion issue to those proffered in the same-sex marriage debate, only point out the fact that each side uses different definitional standards for its assertions in both realms.

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