Round Tables are where several Conciliar Post writers get together and offer their thoughts on a particular topic or question. These forums are intended to demonstrate the similarities and differences between various Christian viewpoints, to foster civil and meaningful discussion, and to provide a place to wrestle with important issues.

At the heart of all discussions are central questions, sometimes explicit, but more often assumed: Is there a God? Where do we come from? Why is the world the way it is? What does it mean to be human? In response to this last question the Christian worldview offers an answer in the first pages of Genesis: to be human is to be made in the “image of God.” In order to more fully explore what it means to be made in God’s image, we asked four members of the Conciliar Post team to answer the following questions: “What does it mean that humanity is made in the image of God? What are the implications of this view?”

As you engage these reflections on the imago Dei, we invite you to offer your own answers to these questions and to engage the perspectives of our writers in the comment section below. Thanks for dialoguing with us.


Jody Byrkett

Senior Editor at Conciliar Post

Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.” So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.”  (Genesis 1:26-27, ESV)

So it began. God formed and filled the world—His creation always becoming more sentient as the narrative goes, until He made the final creature in His own image. Fine, but what does that mean? The short and sweet answer is that humans are God’s ambassadors on earth.

Though God told both the animals and Adam and Eve to be fruitful and multiply (Gen. 1:22, 28), He told Adam and Eve something more: “…fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” (Gen 1:28b) Humans are given rule and authority over the land and animals, to care for them, to cull them, to cultivate them. God put Adam and Eve in the Garden to see order and beauty, and then commanded them to make the whole earth a garden with their hands, their skills, and their creativity.

To give a sketch of the imago Dei, I posit that we bear God’s image in four ways: communication, cultivation, care (stewardship), and creativity. Thus, we are being fully human (what we were made to be) when we practise these four things.

Communication: Using words to communicate truth and love, forgiveness and boldness (and much more, of course)—essentially, using words to breathe life into others.

Cultivation: It is part of our calling and our purpose as human beings to cultivate the earth, whether that means gardening, farming, energy efficiency study and implementation, humane treatment of animals (even the ones we eat), etc.

Care (stewardship): We image God when we care for the earth, animals, and our fellow humans. This might mean letting soil rest, not pouring waste into water, or adopting a pet. It could look like inviting someone over for a meal, helping a neighbour fix their car, teaching someone to work, or walking through grief with a friend.

Creativity: We are like God when we create—from bridges to bicycles, or poetry to peanut butter. Whether on canvas or with clay, with words or with selected silence, through music or movies. God’s imagination is wild, brilliant, and enormous. It has to be in order to think up cells and bodies, giraffes and fruit trees, stars and colours.

Many persons image God without even knowing Him…But many begin to become “unmen”, to use an idea from Lewis’s Perelandra. They forget—or don’t care—that humans are different from all creation. They forget and deny God. They begin to fragment—tearing apart words, art, families, life, meaning. It is a dangerous, deadly thing—ideologically and practically—to deny the imago Dei distinction of human beings.


Ben Cabe

Editor-in-Chief at Conciliar Post

Human beings are a mystery because God is a mystery. At the center of what it means to be human is the reality that we were created according to the image and likeness of God1; a reality that is the starting point, as well as the goal, of human existence.2 For it is a dynamic reality that is tied to the mystery of salvation.3

As Christians we can affirm that the first place we see ‘image’ used in scripture is at the creation of man. Human beings were made in the image and likeness of God.4 We also see in scripture that Jesus is the image of the Father.5 These two realities, that man was created in the image and that Jesus is the image, are deeply related. Man was created in the image so that humanity might be blessed with the incarnation of the Image and thereby unite the created with the uncreated Archetype—for ‘likeness’ has classically been understood to be the principal source of knowing and potential for assimilation.6

God, who is ultimately transcendent and unknowable, made himself known to us through the incarnation of His son, in order that the we, the created, might be united with the uncreated God. When we talk about the chasm between God and man, we must be careful to note that this “fundamental division within reality [is] not between the spiritual and the material, but between the created and the uncreated.”7 That we might have union with the uncreated is, essentially, the telos of man—the eternal will of the Father. Being that this “fundamental division” existed by the very nature of man being created out of nothing it was eternally willed by the Father, out of love, that the Son would become incarnate. This is why the Church Fathers affirm that even if  man had not sinned, Christ would have become incarnate: it was a movement of love, not a reaction to the trespass of man. This is salvation: insofar as we abide in Christ8 we actualize our potential to be in the image and thereby become true images for our being is grounded in Him.

The theology of the image is inextricably connected to the face (πρόσωπον) which, consequently, is connected to the theology of the person (πρόσωπον / ὑπόστᾰσις).9 The early debates over the deity of Christ and the formal articulation of the Trinity during the first several centuries of the Church helped craft and define the language used to speak about such subjects. Strictly speaking, the term person (ὑπόστᾰσις) can only rightly be applied to the persons of the Holy Trinity. From this, man’s potentiality as image bearers is to supercede the limitations of created being—and be freed from necessity10—by being grafted into the uncreated through Christ. True Christian anthropology proclaims that our being is grounded in God and is actualized synergistically through man’s effort and God’s grace.11 A true image has it’s being grounded in the archetype but a false image is not grounded in being. This is, essentially, the horror of hell—the rejection of the image.12 As Paul Evdokimov put it,

“To exist is to participate in being or nothingness. I can make of myself an “icon of God” or acquire a demonic face, a horrible distortion of God.”13

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1Louth, Andrew. Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology. Downers Grive: Intervarsity Press, 2013. 84. Print.
2Nellas, Panayiotis. Deification in Christ. 28.
3Ibid. Also see Andrew Louth, Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology. 84: “The word translated ‘likeness’,, homoiosis, suggests something more precise in Greek: the ending, -oisis, implies a process, not a state (the Greek for Likeness as a state would be homoioma). The word homoiosis would moreover have very definite resonances for anyone who had read PLato, who envisages the goal of the human life as homoiosis — likening, assimilation — to the divine”
4Ibid. “The word translated ‘likeness’,, homoiosis, suggests something more precise in Greek: the ending, -oisis, implies a process, not a state (the Greek for Likeness as a state would be homoioma). The word homoiosis would moreover have very definite resonances for anyone who had read Plato, who envisages the goal of the human life as homoiosis — likening, assimilation — to the divine”
5It should be noted that in the LXX (and subsequently in the fathers) the such is phrased: according to the image.
6Colossians 1:15-18
7Louth, Andrew. Introducing Eastern Orthodox Theology. Downers Grive: Intervarsity Press, 2013. 37. Print.
8There are many different understandings of what ‘abide in Christ means’ but such discussion is not our aim here.
9It was through the Arian and Sabellian heresies that the Fathers undertook to define prosopon (face) as well as cementing the definitions of hypostasis (person) and ousia (essence)—over period of time of time between the third and sixth centuries. For theology of the “face” see 1 Cor 13:12; 2 Cor. 2:13; Ex. 34:35; Num 5:25-26; 1 Chron 16:11; Psalm 31:16; Psalm 67:1; Psalm 80:19; Psalm 119:135; Ezekiel 39:29; Exodus 33:20-23; Exodus 33:11; Deut 5:4; Ezekiel 20:33; Rev 22:4.
10St. Gregory of Nyssa. On the Making of Man, Chapter 18.11.
11St Diadochos of Photiki, On Spiritual Knowledge, Text 89. Philokalia. Vol. One p.288 “Our likeness to God requires our cooperation. When the intellect (nous) begins to perceive the Holy Spirit with full consciousness, we should realize that grace is beginning to paint the divine likeness over the divine image in us. If the intellect (nous) does not receive the perfection of the divine likeness through such illumination, although it may have almost every other virtue, it will still have no share in the perfect love.”
12Note N.T. Wright’s recent comment on this: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vggzqXzEvZ0>
13Paul Evdokimov, Ages of the Spiritual Life. 157.

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Laura Norris

Senior Editor at Conciliar Post

The notion that humanity is created in the Image of God runs deep throughout the Catholic tradition. The image of God is present in the theology the Scriptures, the great Doctors including Saint Augustine and Saint Thomas Aquinas, and the modern day workers for social justice such as Archbishop Oscar Romero and Dorothy Day. One can quickly cite the Catholic Catechism for a definition of the Imago Dei: “The divine image is present in every [human]. It shines forth in the communion of persons, in the likeness of the unity of the divine persons among themselves.”

The Catechism and the great Catholic theologian Saint Thomas Aquinas derive their understanding of the Imago Dei from Scripture, so let us proceed to that same source for our discussion. Genesis proclaims that “God created humankind in his image, in the image of God he created them, male and female he created them.” Saint Augustine reminds us that “where an image exists, there forthwith is likeness;” thus to be made in the image of God is to bear the likeness (albeit an imperfect likeness) to God. This Genesis passage affirms that all people—both men and women—bear the image of God.

What does this mean for us, then, that we are made in the Image of God? There are a multitude of correct answers, from care for the poor, sick, and elderly to a pro-life political stance, but I want to again return to Scripture for an answer of what being made in the image of God means for our relationship with God, not just our relationship with others. Matthew 22:15-22, the famous “render unto Caesar what is Caesar’s and unto God what God’s” passage, is often interpreted to pertain to taxation. As I realized in my graduate school Biblical Studies class, this is only one interpretation of many and probably not the primary one.

Judaism, including Second Temple Judaism (1st century AD)—the context for Jesus’ world and the Gospels—was an anthropomorphic religion. Think of all the times in the Old Testament in which God is described as walking, speaking, or watching—all human actions. Judaism, especially the Talmud, prohibited the machination of images of God because God made his image in humanity. Therefore, what is made in God’s image (humanity) belongs to God, as the Old Testament references to “the people of God” indicate. Now, the coins of Caesar in the Matthew passage bore the image of Caesar. When Jesus told the Pharisees to “give to Caesar what belongs to Caesar,” he meant give to Caesar what bears the image of Caesar—the coins. When he said “give to God what belongs to God,” this carried much more meaning than taxes. If the coin that bears Caesar’s image belongs to him, then the human person that bears God’s image belongs to him (God).

So, when we speak of humanity being created in the image of God, we speak of humanity as belonging to God, as being his people, his children. Being made in the image of God requires us to pay reverence to God our Creator through worship, prayer, and good works. Each time we attend church on Sunday, we are giving to God what belongs to God.


Jacob Prahlow

Managing Editor at Conciliar Post

What does it mean to be made in the image of God? This topic has a long and varied history of discussion, spanning at least the four thousand-or-so-year history of Judeo-Christian religion. For Christians, our reflections on this topic must begin with the words of Genesis:

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth.’

So God created man in his own image,

in the image of God he created him;

male and female he created them.”

Genesis 1:26-27

There are several different ways in which this passage has been interpreted over the years. One of the most common interpretations has centered on the ability of human beings to reason. In some meaningful sense, our ability to think—to rationalize, explain ourselves, and form sense with our words—makes us like the Divine. Another perspective on what it means to be made in the image of God involves our ability to speak. The writer of Genesis describes God’s act of creation as one of the speaking the world into existence. In this view, our ability to speak sets us apart from the animals and other forms of creation, making us like the Creator who speaks. A third interpretation of what it means to be created imago Dei involves human dominion over the earth. In a manner akin to God’s rule over the entire cosmos, humanity has regency over the earth, to control, care for, and bring it to fruition.

These three interpretations about what it means to be created in the image of God are, I think, entirely appropriate ways to think about the meaning (and implications) of imago Dei. They  rightly affirm the dignity, worth, and sacredness of all God’s creation while affirming the special chosen-ness of human beings. They call humans to recognize the God-likeness in each person, reminding us of the need to love and honor our fellow human beings in a rightly ordered way. Finally, each affirms the special place and role of human beings within the totality of creation.

However, there is another aspect of what it means to be created in the image of God which I would like to reflect on here, namely, the creative ability of human beings. I take my lead here from such thinkers as J. R. R. Tolkien and C. S. Lewis. In this line of thought, an integral part of what means to be human is our ability to create. That is, to be made in the image of God is to be able to perceive that which is not immediately before us and then—in some meaningful and creative way, through some act of mind or body—to be able to bring into existence something which previously only existed in our own minds. In a manner similar to the way in which God spoke the world into existence—creatio ex nihilo—the special make-up of human beings is their ability to “create” through mind and body.

This involves imaginative, musical, literary, and physical creation; our ability to craft intellectual meaning, to create and tell stories, to make meaning of mundane and ordinary human events. Obviously some people are better at certain kinds of creation than others. Tolkien, for example, was a master of a literary world; Bach was lord of the organ. Though few are as talented as these exemplars, we all create in our own ways and in our own contexts.

We are also creative when we live out the most important aspect of God’s act of creation, the creation of the universe by his Word. God created humans for relationship through his own Triune love, and we too are called to manifest our participation in the image of God through creative love. For God so loved the world that in love he made to the world, and—the world having fallen into decay–he saved the world through the love of his Son. So also we are called to live as images of God today by loving others.

Photo courtesy of Lasse Christensen.

23 responses to “Round Table: Image of God”

  1. Chris Cam Smith Avatar

    Thanks to each of you for this discussion! It seems that most of you agree on the central points. The perspective I’ve heard from the more fundamentalist voices seems much more negative – that man is eternally damned from the “Fall” of Adam and that we have so severely distorted the imago Dei since Adam that we have no hope, thus necessitating the need for Christ’s sacrifice on the cross. This is one of the primary reasons I wanted to see a round table on this subject to get some more perspectives. Since the four of you have backgrounds in the oldest Christian churches, I assume the ideas that you all express represent the historic Christian view on this issue.

    1. Jody Byrkett Avatar

      Chris, I was actually surprised you didn’t add your voice to this RT, so I’m glad you made the above comment.

      Of course our reason and understanding are diminished and distorted by the Fall, as is the image of God in us. Because of this, we are prone to break things in all relationships, whether with people, God, the earth, or ourselves. Of course man is damned because of the Fall. But the fragmentation/distortion caused by the Fall doesn’t somehow render humans as something other than imago Dei… It renders us in need of redemption by the “Express image of God” as Paul calls Jesus.

      Do we need Jesus to come in the flesh, die on the cross, and rise from the dead *in history*? Yes, yes we do. But if the Fall had not happened, we would have still been privileged to have that same Son of God take on flesh and walk among us, because of Love (as Ben made mention of above). And now I’m getting ahead of myself for our December RT topic. 😉

      So fundamentalists get the need for the incarnate, exact image of God to come to show us what we were made to be… But I think they miss the fact that He would have come regardless of the Fall.

      Do you have further thoughts on this?

      1. Chris Cam Smith Avatar

        Jody, despite suggesting it, I didn’t participate in this one because I wanted to learn from each of you guys. I tend to agree with you and Ben that God would have become the Incarnate Word regardless of the fall, but I’m interested in hearing some responses to George’s critique below.

  2. Jody Byrkett Avatar

    Ben, I got so excited that I exclaimed aloud when I was reading your piece, particularly this part: “This is why the Church Fathers affirm that even if man had not sinned, Christ would have become incarnate: it was a movement of love, not a reaction to the trespass of man.”

    Yes, yes, yes! When I have made similar statements to other Believers they sometimes look at me funny… But if they are willing to delve into conversation, they usually see why the incarnation matters so deeply outside of the Fall.

    Thanks for including that vital point in your discussion of the imago Dei.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      Jody and Ben, I’m curious to hear how you would respond to this. (I say this critique with gratitude for y’all’s additions to the conversation. I especially loved Ben’s recognizing Christ is the image, and we are made in the image).

      It seems to me, the idea of the Incarnation as happening even if there wasn’t sin in the world is conjecture. The idea is not found in scripture, and it seems that scripture teaches something contrary. Namely, Christ came in the world to save sinners, to establish a kingdom of righteousness, justice, and peace. Let’s look at Mary and Zechariah’s response to the Incarnation. They use the words “salvation,” “oppression,” “rich and poor,” “hungry,” “mercy,” “saved from our enemies,” and “redeemed.” It seems that Christ’s coming is inextricably bound to the redemption of the world and his people, establishing a kingdom that is contrary to the world’s kingdom.

      While the Incarnation-would’ve-happened-without-sin seems like a beautiful proposition, it seems like it has a few holes that I’d love to hear you guys respond to. 1) It isn’t found in scripture. Therefore, as a Protestant, I don’t think we can/should hold to the idea with much confidence. 2) It seems to diminish the fellowship Adam and Eve had with God in the garden. I think it is damaging to think that God needs to Incarnate himself in order for there not to be a “chasm” between the created and uncreated. I think the very creation of humanity in his image shows that this is not a “chasm,” but it is sin that creates distance from the Lord. 3) It may diminish the salvific work Christ has done on our behalf. Again, the chasm between God and humanity was not due to the nature of created/uncreated, but due to sin and death. Christ’s life, death, and resurrection all have salvation at its center, with love as the consequence. Without Christ’s work, we remain “enemies” of God.

      What do y’all think?

      1. Chris Cam Smith Avatar

        Very interesting points George. I’ll be interested to hear how Ben and the others respond here. I was actually hoping to hear from you since your church falls into a slightly different interpretation than many of the others.

      2. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Thanks for the comment George. I agree with you in that the Lord “coming into the world” was for salvation. We must be very careful when we speak about this, however, for this is a mystery!

        Principally, our starting points are different. We understand Genesis differently than your tradition does. (We have had this conversation over and over again). For us, Adam and Eve were not made “perfect” in the sense that they had “arrived”. Their humanity was given to them but also set before them as a goal. They were to be raised above creation and grafted into Christ—a journey! This is indicated by the portion of Genesis where it mentions that the Lord says “we should banish them from the garden so they don’t eat of the tree of life” (paraphrase)—> and then the next part follows implicitly: “Because if they did they would be stuck in their fallen state.” God banished man from the Garden out of Love.

        It’s interesting that because it’s not explicitly state in scripture, “Jesus would have become incarnate even if Adam and Eve had not failed their vocation”, many do not believe this. Also interesting is the fact that there are several things like this that most protestant do accept, even though they’re not in scripture—monogamy is one example. In fact, Luther recognized this and stated that he could not rightfully condemn multiple wives because he could not see that scripture did (that’s consistency!)—although he did recommend against it. (All of this just to question the hermeneutic).

        There isn’t really a need to rehash what we’ve spoken of concerning our understanding of scripture. We must remember, however, that Christ did become incarnate (a mystery!) and this this does indeed unite us to him (although we may understand this in a different way) and his death on the cross is how death is defeated. These two mysteries open to us salvation (theosis) as we currently experience / journey toward it.

        Concerning your last point, there is really no dispute. Greek Philosophers / philosophers throughout the ages / Christians throughout the ages / modern day scholars accept the fact that there is indeed, by nature, a chasm between uncreated and created. The uniting of these two in the body of Christ is what makes his life totally available to us. This ties into everything.

        Forgive me.

      3. Jody Byrkett Avatar

        George, I confess that I did not grow up with this view about Jesus becoming incarnate whether the Fall did or did not happen. The shift has come from hearing persons wiser than myself explain the idea in the past seven-plus years.

        I don’t think that Jesus becoming man downplays the relationship Adam and Eve had with God in the Garden. As Ben stated, there is still a wide gulf between Creator and creature, and Jesus bridged that gulf… It seems reasonable to believe He would have done so even if our eternal souls were not on the line, but to help us go “further up and further in” to our calling to be human beings made in God’s image.

        No, the Bible never says explicitly that Jesus would have become incarnate had the Fall not happened… But of course, the Fall happens three chapters into the book (spoilers!), so there wasn’t exactly a chance for that to happen. Instead, God immediately gives the protoevangelium in the midst of the Curse—the Seed of the woman will crush the head of the serpent sometime in the future… And all of the story then hangs on that point, either to come, or as we look back on it now—depending on where one is in the story.

        Ben, you mentioned in your piece that the church fathers taught this idea of Christ coming, Fall or no… Can you point me to a work, a chapter, etc. on this topic so I can learn more? Again, I didn’t grow up believing this, but have had a good case made to me in conversations and lectures… Which means I’m about due for some reading on the topic. 😉 Thanks!

      4. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Thanks for asking, Jody. I did some poking for some online sources you could use. This guy speaks about Irenaeus’ view of this. (http://thewellofquestions.wordpress.com/2011/07/27/incarnation-without-the-fall-in-st-irenaeus/). The best part of this article is, “St. Irenaeus seems to teach something like the following. Salvation is broader than just the removal of evil; it can simply mean removing the possibility of evil. This is accomplished by the Incarnation of the Word, who makes human nature incorruptible by indwelling it.” — I will continue to give you resources as I come across them.

      5. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Thanks for y’all’s response. I do appreciate the perspective of the Fathers that the Incarnation would’ve happened without sin. I get the force and beauty behind it. But I have a couple of reservations.

        First, I don’t think we should hold to such confidence that which is not expressed in scripture. We can agree to disagree here it seems, though I am uncomfortable with saying that “incarnation without sin” is a truth we can be confident expressing. As to the marriage discussion, I’m not sure about what Luther had to say, but the model for the scriptures is certainly one flesh union between one man and one woman from the beginning of Genesis with Adam and Eve to the marriage of Christ and his church in the end. So I don’t see the force of that point.

        Second, and I think this is the conversation I care about the most. I do not believe that there is an intrinsic chasm between created and uncreated that must be bridged. I just don’t see God’s relation to humanity in Genesis or otherwise as being about a response to an intrinsic chasm, but a relation that starts with intimacy in the garden (not a chasm) that is broken with sin. It seems that “chasm” or “wide gulf” language does damage to what we believe about how God creates and how he relates to his creation. It sounds as if God is a deistic creator that needs to Incarnate himself in order to relate to his creation. The scriptures present an opposite picture, a God who relates to his creation in covenants, laws, miracles, etc., that do not require an incarnation for there to be fellowship. The chasm between God and humanity is a difference of holiness, not of embodiment.

      6. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I believe our modern understanding of monogamy, when put to the test, cannot be found in scripture—at least Luther didn’t think so. It’s too speculative—it reads into the passage what we already believe: in monogamy.

        Perhaps chasm is the wrong word. Certainly God has a relationship with his creatures and interacts with his creation. The incarnation-without-the-fall is based on a deeper understanding of salvation: one that is total union with the Holy Trinity; a grafting into the body of Christ; an invitation to participate in the uncreatedness of God through his energies through the incarnation.

        Let us take an example (this example requires us to assume the Christian view of male-female relationships). A man and his fiance may know one another but they are forbidden to intimately know one another physically until marriage. Certainly before and after marriage the two persons know one another—although, after marriage, they know one another deeper. This is, essentially, the understanding of the incarnation—as something that love demands: the possibility of the consummation of the relationship with God.

      7. Jody Byrkett Avatar

        George, as the saying goes, “Sloppy language makes sloppy thought possible.” You’re right, the “wide gulf” language was probably not the best choice for what Ben and I meant…

        How about this, God isn’t just a bigger and better version of man—He is separate, other. Yet He made man in His image and likeness (with Christ being the exact representation, and the rest of us being in His likeness).

        I think what Ben and I are trying to get at (Ben, correct me if I’m wrong) is that while Adam and Eve had fellowship with God in the garden, there was still a vast difference between them and God. God was their Creator, as well as their Friend. God was very much other than they were, yet they were made in His likeness…

        How do they, we, become more fully human (mature humans)? By being like God—because we’re made in His image. Well, yes, but how do we practically grow into maturity? We need an example or guide. Maybe God would have been that example as they walked together in the Garden…But the way that seems most likely to have been fulfilled is through the incarnation—the Creator taking on created flesh.

        I’ll give you the point that the Bible never addresses this specifically. Perhaps it is wild speculation (like pre-Adamites and the time gap some people think is between Gen 1:1 and 1:2)… But I don’t think it is too wild, even if it speculative. God is different than we are. God loves us. God wants us to become mature human beings… It stands to reason He would then choose to walk among us (as a man as well as God) to help us know what that looks like—even without the Fall.

        You are well aware that the Bible never mentions the Trinity, yet I’m guessing you believe God is one God in three persons… Yet even the doctrine without the name is not specifically mentioned in Scripture (unless you count that First John passage which was added to a few later manuscripts). That said, we infer things from Scripture, from God’s character, etc. that may not be in Scripture but are consistent with who God is… I think both the Trinity and the-incarnation-without-the-Fall are in that category. But maybe I took a logical leap…?

        Wow, sorry I keep getting so verbose in my responses. I think that means you’re making me think about things, which I really appreciate… Grazi!

      8. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        I don’t think you’re being verbose at all Jody! I appreciate people that are willing to engage, the more words the better.

        I think we stand at something of an impasse here, me not willing to take the Fathers or the beauty of the proposition as authoritative. I do think that maybe the proposition of incarnation-without-sin is a pretty doctrine, it’s a pretty neat sounding doctrine (I’m not being patronizing, this is how I feel about it), but I don’t think it should be held with any confidence.

        I do not think that the incarnation-without-sin proposition can in any way be related to the trinity or monogamy as created ideal. For the former, it is clear in scripture that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are described as distinct, yet God. For monogamy, it is clear (though I think less so than the trinity) that monogamy is the created ideal, as Adam and Eve are one flesh, Christ in the gospels says that one flesh between man and woman are the ideal, and Revelation proclaims that monogamy between Christ and his church is the final destiny of redeemed humanity. For the incarnation-without-sin proposition, the scriptural support is in no way similar.

        Given that we are at this impasse, my main question to you two would be then, What do you think is lost/is anything lost by Christians who do not believe/do not hold with any confidence that the incarnation would’ve happened without sin? Is there something about creation/Christ that is illuminated by this belief? (I think to your previous point Ben about the belief of Adam and Eve as infants of sorts, called to grow up into fully grown humanity. I think that is very related to the Reformed emphasis on the “cultural mandate” of Genesis 1, in which humanity is called to create beautiful and flourishing culture, knowledge, institutions, etc., that don’t exist at Genesis 1, if you will. I think the point about humanity being “infants” at the start is something that should be believed)

      9. Jody Byrkett Avatar

        George, glad my loquaciousness is an asset rather than a drawback. 😉 I really have appreciated your questions, your push to bring this conversation back to Scripture.

        Again, I realise that this idea of incarnation-without-the-Fall is speculative and not mentioned in Scripture—it is a sort of logical conclusion of what God would have done if the Fall hadn’t happened… But how do we know what God would have done if the Fall hadn’t happened? The short answer is, we don’t—not really. But we can see characteristics of God that give us ideas, models in some way, of how things might have gone.

        Does all of this change how we view or know God? I think it enriches our understanding of how much God loves us, how relational He is… Someone in your position of scepticism (which I understand) isn’t exactly lacking anything—not anything regarding salvation—but I think your relational understanding of God may be diminished.

        This is an aside because I’m curious… I’m with you that there is a good deal of evidence for monogamy (guess I haven’t read much Luther, but the Bible seems clear on that topic); and of course, I really think there is a decent bit of proof for the Trinity in Scripture… I should have used something that I don’t think is actually true, but is taught as doctrine. Could we say that the incarnation-without-the-Fall belief is something akin to that nebulous “age of accountability” people talk about? I don’t see evidence for that in Scripture, but I know scores of people who believe it because it “sounds nice”—we don’t want children to go to Hell, nor do we want God’s reputation ruined. Is that a better comparison, or am I stretching it too much?

      10. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Yeah, I like your response. I think that is a humble way of believing in the idea, while recognizing that it has theological importance/weight.

        Yeah, maybe the age of accountability thing works here. As a calvinist, I don’t talk about an “age of accountability,” for it seems to me that it assumes original sin doesn’t take into effect until you turn 10, but that is a different conversation to have haha. I think a calvinist would say that the child is saved if God chooses to elect him/her, which God may very well do for all children who die. But that is speculation too, yes.

        Hm. I think maybe I’m warming to the analogy between the two beliefs. Maybe there are some doctrines that our theological systems commit us to (for example, prevenient grace for Wesleyans, common grace for Reformed, incarnation-without-sin for Orthodox). The three doctrines aren’t explicitly formulated in scripture, nor are the words of the doctrines used in scripture.

        Though I think the incarnation-without-sin idea is still less “there” in scripture as the other two. Thanks for the interesting question, I’ll have to think about it some more haha.

      11. Ben Cabe Avatar

        It’s interesting that you would say you think that incarnation-without-fall is less there than age of accountability–which as far as I am concerned, was a work around for the Protestant / Western misunderstanding of “original sin”. Also a different conversation.

      12. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        No no. I think the age of accountability is probably just as “there” as incarnation-without-fall, I’m with you on that. I was referring to prevenient grace and common grace for the Wesleyan and Reformed traditions, respectively.

      13. Jody Byrkett Avatar

        So, what you guys are saying is that we should have an “age of accountability” round table sometime…. I am very curious to hear people’s thoughts on that subject, as I am always in the very small minority (often of one) who thinks that is a bogus teaching.

      14. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Although I do want to note that I too am grateful for this dialogue. The push back does not bother me. It’s more of the “not in scripture” thing that does 🙂 but once again, a different conversation.

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