In AD 250, Roman Emperor Decius mandated every inhabitant of his empire to publicly sacrifice to the Roman gods in order to prove their loyalty to the empire. Refusal to sacrifice was punishable by death. Many Christians died under Decius, like the Roman Bishop Fabian, but many others chose sacrifice over martyrdom. To further his damage, Decius prevented the appointment of a successor to Fabian in Rome.

When Decius departed Rome for war in the spring of 251, a new bishop named Cornelius was elected. Cornelius allowed Christians who had wavered under the persecution of Decius to return to the church in contrition. A Roman priest named Novation however, was appalled at Cornelius and named himself Rome’s new bishop within weeks. Unlike Cornelius, Novation demanded the re-baptism of believers who had lapsed under Decius.

CYPRIAN STRIKES BACK

An African Bishop, Cyprian of Carthage, responded with a series of letters to other African bishops which are extant today as a short book titled “On the Unity of the Church.” Without naming Novation, Cyprian assailed those who leave the Church, those who “assume to themselves the name of bishop,” and those who follow such “brethren that walk disorderly.” Cyprian made it very clear in these letters that he considered it is impossible to divide the Church:

“Let no one think that the good can depart from the Church.”

“As there are many rays of the sun, but one light; and many branches of a tree, but one strength based in its tenacious root; and since from one spring flow many streams, although the multiplicity seems diffused in the liberality of an overflowing abundance, yet the unity is still preserved in the source.”

“Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated.”

Neither did Cyprian allow the idea that anyone can be a Christian outside of the Church:

“Do they deem that they have Christ with them when they are collected together, who are gathered together outside the Church of Christ?”

“Does he think that he has Christ, who acts in opposition to Christ’s priests, who separates himself from the company of His clergy and people?”

CHURCH SCHISMS

We have come to accept today an idea which Cyprian would no more allow than he would lay claim to leprechauns or the tooth fairy. We speak of “Church schisms.” Many of us view the “Great Schism” of AD 1054 as the ultimate example of true division of the body of Jesus, the Anointed King of kings.

Cyprian claimed the Church can no more be divided than the robe of our Master could be divided upon his crucifixion. He noted in chapter seven of On the Unity of the Church that the Lord’s garment was “woven from the top” because the Church has been woven together by God. The soldiers had to gamble for His robe, because it could not be divided. Just as the Lord’s robe was undivided, Cyprian quoted our Lord’s declaration that there is “one flock and one shepherd.”

Whatever the Great Schism broke, Cyprian left no room for it to have truly divided the one flock of the Shepherd into two flocks. The political battles of Ephesus and Chalcedon could not have broken the one Church and Flock of our Lord. Neither could they have broken the succession of apostolic bishops any more than the body of the Anointed1 Lord Jesus can be broken into two, three, or four bodies. Jesus is undivided. Likewise undivided is His body which is His bride and His Church, His “Called-out.”

Paul called the church at Corinth one church, despite the fact that they had the appearance of separating themselves under four names as four lines of authority. Likewise, the apostolic succession today resides under four primary names and apostolic lines as the Assyrian Church of the East, Oriental Orthodoxy, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Roman Catholicism. Yet Paul made it clear that we are not truly divided, asking rhetorically, “Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?” Likewise, he told the saints at Ephesus:

“There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.”

THE PROTESTANT QUESTION

Cyprian’s On the Unity of the Catholic Church, however, left little room for Protestantism to actually be Christian. Protestants left the “company of His clergy and people” just as Cyprian condemned in chapter seventeen. Protestants have also committed Cyprian’s chapter ten crime of naming their own leaders rather than depending on the existing bishops to make such designations. In Cyprian’s writing, those outside the Church clearly are not Christians. He punctuated his point in chapter nine by quoting the Apostle John:

“They went forth from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, surely they would have continued with us.”

To count Protestantism as outside of the Church is to count Protestantism as “not of us,” that is to say, not truly Christian. If Martin Luther and his company truly left the Church, then they departed because they were not truly Christians. I believe Luther and company committed much folly in the sixteenth century and should have followed after the manner of Desiderius Erasmus, protesting hierarchical problems from within the apostolic succession. After much research and despite serious fault-finding with Protestantism, I cannot claim that Luther and company were not Christians, much less that they departed from Rome due to a feigned faith in the Anointed Lord Jesus.

In chapter four of Unity, Cyprian made an argument which cannot be defended. He asked, “Does he who does not hold this unity of the Church think that he holds the faith? Does he who strives against and resists the Church trust that he is in the Church . . .” He then quoted Ephesians 4:4-6, “There is one body and one spirit, one hope of your calling, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, one God.” Protestants strove against and resisted Rome, therefore Cyprian would condemn them as outside of the one Church. Yet Protestants are united to all four apostolic branches by Paul’s Scriptural river of one Spirit, one hope, one incarnate Lord, one faith, one crucial formula of baptism,2 and the one and only triune God.

Those outside of the true church like Mormonism and the Watchtower Society deny the incarnate Lord and the triune God of the apostles. The apostles never defined the church by who appointed a bishop. According to the Lord Jesus, according his apostles, and according to the holy Writings of his apostles, the singular flock of the singular Shepherd, the singular body of Jesus are those who share one Spirit, one hope, one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God.

THE MODERN CORINTHIAN PROBLEM

Similar to first century Corinth, the Church today is partly divided by names and by Eucharistic practices. In the opening verses of 1 Corinthians, Paul said that they were one church, in one God, sanctified together as saints, and in the name of the Lord Jesus. Yet in verses ten and following, they lacked unity of mind and judgment, leading to contentions. They claimed four names, as if the Anointed Jesus Himself had been divided, which Paul rendered impossible in verse thirteen.

Then in 1 Corinthians 11:18, Paul said “schisms” were reported in Corinth and that he believed it “in part.” He did not allow the possibility however, of full schism. He was clearly troubled in the following verses by their failure to unite harmoniously in the Eucharist meal, establishing factions of “those who are approved” and those who were not. Likewise today, many sections of Christianity practice closed communion, requiring membership in their own faction as a prerequisite approval to partaking in the communion sacrament.

THE CORINTHIAN SOLUTION

Christianity has a type of pentarchy today which we can choose to enjoy,  learn from, and embrace. As Chalcedonian Christians in AD 451 defined five patriarchates, we have five primary branches of Christianity today. Four points of the ancient pentarchy have obvious modern parallels with Rome as Roman Catholicism, Constantinople as Eastern Orthodoxy, Alexandria as Oriental Orthodoxy3, and Antioch as the Assyrian Church of the East.4 If we treat Protestantism as the Jerusalem of the ancient pentarchy, then we have five branches to embrace just as Chalcedonians once respected five patriarchates. Either we can choose between these five as if we were Corinthians, or we can embrace them as one.

I choose to embrace the singular worldwide Church by dropping the factional name I once claimed. I am not of Paul, Apollos, Cephas, nor Protestant. I am Christian, embracing the only creed which gained ecumenical acceptance,5 that of Nicaea. I embrace the 27 apostolic writings which all five branches of our faith affirm as holy Scripture. I embrace the 46 Jewish writings which all four branches of the faith affirmed as holy Scripture long before the Protestant Reformation. Most importantly, I embrace all five branches of the faith by listening to and learning from all five branches, reading the revered books of each branch, following advocates of each branch on social media, and personally befriending adherents of each branch as opportunities allow.

Factions in the one Church are tragic, but they are not full divisions, only “in part” as Paul put it: “I hear that there are divisions among you, and in part I believe it.” We are one Church, one flock, the one body of our Lord, united in those things which Paul implored in Ephesians 4:1-6. As Cyprian correctly stated, the robe of our Lord Jesus has been woven from above and cannot be divided. To preserve the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace is as Paul mandated, we must walk in a manner worthy of our calling with which we were called:

“with all lowliness and gentleness, with longsuffering, bearing with one another in love . . .”

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Except where otherwise noted, Scripture taken from the New King James Version®. Copyright © 1982 by Thomas Nelson. Used by permission. All rights reserved.

Footnotes:

    1. Except when quoting others, I translate “Christ” as our Lord’s title, not His last name. “Christos” means “Anointed” as prophetically defined by Psalm 2, the Son of God who conquers worldly authorities.
    2. Benjamin Winter provided the following helpful link which discusses early Christian distinctions on the efficacy of baptism: http://biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/ashland_theological_journal/23-1_37.pdf
    3. Oriental Orthodox churches are in full communion with one another and recognize the archbishop of Alexandria as the first among equals among their bishops. Alexandria has led Oriental Orthodoxy since the fifth century Council of Chalcedon. For more information, see http://www.coptic.net/articles/monophysitismreconsidered.txt
    4. Bishop Maurutha of Maipherquat (later called Martyropolis) opened the synod at Seleucia-Ctesiphon in AD 410 with a letter from the archbishop of Antioch. With three requirements from the archbishop of Antioch, Maurutha oversaw the instatement of Bishop Isaac as the first ever catholicos of the Church of the East. For more details, see chapter 8 of Samuel Moffatt’s “A History of Christianity in Asia, Volume I.”
    5. Moffatt, Samuel Hugh, “A History of Christianity in Asia, Volume I,” (Orbis Books, Maryknoll, NY), 155.

 

Sources:

http://www.roman-empire.net/decline/decius.html

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04375c.htm

http://orthodoxwiki.org/Cyprian_of_Carthage

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf05.iv.v.i.html

http://www.coptic.net/articles/monophysitismreconsidered.txt

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37 responses to “Cyprian on Leprechauns, the Tooth Fairy, and Church Schisms”

  1. Kenneth O'Shaughnessy Avatar
    Kenneth O’Shaughnessy

    It’s an interesting perspective, and I can see some merit in it. I assume, however, you do go to church? And presumably in one of the pentarchal venues?

    1. mmchanb Avatar
      mmchanb

      Thanks, Kenneth! My congregation is Protestant, but I am not. They are aware of my theological stances, including the wider canon of Scripture, yet they allow me to present the homily (sermon) regularly.

      1. Kenneth O'Shaughnessy Avatar
        Kenneth O’Shaughnessy

        I think my main follow-up question here is: Does each have equal validity? Where there are serious doctrinal differences (as mentioned by Ben below) is a council required, or do the past councils stand (reinforcing the idea that the earlier churches may be “more valid”)? I think refusing to commune with one another is different from being in outright opposition to the basic tenets on another’s faith.

      2. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        The councils were not ecumenical despite the fact that we Christians market them with that word. The fruit of Nicea became ecumenical however, in it’s decisions being accepted throughout the apostolic faith.

        Differences in doctrine present a grand opportunity for study and meaningful dialogue. We tend to lament our differences rather celebrate the commonalities, and the commonalities are the most crucial ones.

        If we exhibited enough mutual love and humility as to make a modern council possible, that would be a marvelous thing. The general tenor of dialogue between the five modern Church branches does not currently make one optimistic though.

      3. Ben Cabe Avatar

        “The councils were not ecumenical despite the fact that we Christians market them with that word.” This may be a dogmatic statement on your part, but I do not think it can be backed up—save in opinion.

      4. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Thaks, Ben. I discussed it in more detail in my “Defense of Nestorius” article. The councils were empirical (of one empire) rather than ecumenical. The Persian Empire, India, and other established realms were not represented. I’m told only one bishop came from all of the Persian Empire and one at most (but questionably even the one) from India. I mention those regions because they were the most well established outside of the Rome/Byzantium.

      5. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I can see where you might be uneasy about calling them ecumenical. However, Ignatius in the 100’s seems to clearly demonstrate that an “entire community” can be “met” in their Bishop. That being said, I would still be hesitant to get into he politics of such a statement.

  2. Ben Cabe Avatar

    Hi Matthew. Thank you for writing this piece; I think it is a major stepping stone in (my) understanding of where you are coming from (when we dialogue). I’m curious how you reconcile the varying soteriological explanations within Protestantism—and the disagreement (in Protestantism) about what is necessary for salvation.

    In my opinion, the major difference between Protestantism and the other three you mention is that Protestantism is split a thousand times on itself. What I mean is you can have varying understandings (and beliefs) within a single Protestant church on something like Salvation and what constitutes salvation.

    1. mmchanb Avatar
      mmchanb

      Thanks, Ben. As I explain in “Forgotten Gospel,” I find the Protestant definition of salvation sorely lacking, so I find a degree of amusement in the Protestant infighting about what is necessary for salvation. They often want me to weigh in on the argument, but I refuse on the basis that they are arguing semantics if they don’t understand what “salvation” is first – liberation from the slavery of sin and Satan in this lifetime.

      There are a lot of family squabbles in each of the five Christian branches, but yes – Protestants likely have the most turbulent branch on the tree.

      1. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I suppose the other question would be can we even speak about a “Protestant” branch of Christianity? In my previous article Is Protestantism a Heresy? I was defining of Protestantism (using the term broadly on purpose) as those who are neither Roman Catholic nor Orthodox. The major critique of that article (from Protestants—on fb in particular) was that there is “no such thing as Protestantism, per se.”

        So I wonder how this model of the Church (and Church unity) would hold up under similar scrutiny? It seems to me that the critique is true: there is no such thing as Protestantism (in unity)—Protestantism is, and can only be defined, as “other than Roman Catholic or Orthodox”—e.g., defined against something *other*.

      2. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Great question! The same however, could be leveled at the other four branches. For example, “Western Rite” and “Old Faith” forms of Eastern Orthodoxy do not diminish the commonalites of that branch in my opinion.

        To claim one is not Protestant, despite his or her background is great. We are all Christians and need no other name (again, just my opinion). To deny however, that there is no such thing as Protestantism seems rather difficult to me in light of history. I wonder what basis was offered for such an argument.

      3. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Hi Matthew. I think there is a fundamental difference between the distinction of Western / Eastern Rite Orthodox Church (or, say, Byzantine Rite Catholic Churches) than the distinctions in Protestantism. The Eastern Orthodox still hold a common faith. There is a distinction in Orthodoxy between dogma and theological opinion—one must hold to Orthodox dogma to be Orthodox. But an opinion, such as Christ would have become incarnate without the fall can be held without infringing on the dogma (or ones Orthodox status).

        But with distinctions in Protestantism such as hyper-calvinism, hyper-dispensationalism, or even mega-church theology, is far different than a Western / Eastern rite distinction. So, I guess, I would “hyper” disagree with you with respect to this as I do not believe such claims can be backed up.

        The only uniting factor of Protestantism is its protest. Even if you hold the same doctrines (in name) the way they are understood or applied is often radically different (I think you know this due to your understanding of the cross / and what you have written about Christus Victor.)

      4. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Respectfully, I disagree in part. Are you familiar with Old Faith in Russia and their historic rejection of and from EO changes in Russia? I’m sure you are correct however, that there is more in common in EO than in Protestantism. It’s a caricature to say that Protestants only have their protesting :^) in common.

        Off the top of my head, they all hold Trinitarian theology, a common (and lamentably abbreviated) canon of Scripture, and five doctrinal agreements generally referred to as “Solas.”

      5. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I suppose one could strip the differences to focus on the “agreements” in name. The real question is how these agreements agree with the practicing of their theology. And it is here, I believe, that is the rub.

  3. Benjamin Winter Avatar
    Benjamin Winter

    A thought-provoking piece! I’ve enjoyed the comments below, and have only to add something about Cyprian. I believe that his principle about the Church being One (Holy… Apostolic… etc.) is just as valid today as it was 1,800 years ago. What changed is how that principle can be expressed and applied in in a very different world. I don’t think that, according to Cyprian, that “fifth group” (Protestants, etc.) you mention would all be automatic heretics. What about those simply born into the separated groups? Bottom line is that, in the example you mention (which provided excellent historical context), there was a concrete situation in which people expressed agency for or against joining/leaving.

    I’ve actually just looked into this topic for my “What is Christianity?” paragraph…interesting how things coalesce! I leave you with a recommendation to read Unitatis Redintegratio (esp paragraph 3, if you have not already). The text is on ecumenism in the modern world, and it treats the topic of how all Baptized are incorporated in some way into the Body of Christ. “All who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ’s body, and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church”

    1. mmchanb Avatar
      mmchanb

      Thank you, Ben. “Unitatis Redintegratio” is a catchy name if I’ve ever heard one. I found it here http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

      and I look forward to reading. Thanks for the recommendation!

  4. Jacob Prahlow Avatar

    Matthew,
    Thanks for a great article and for the important reminder of our need to learn from all of our fellow Christians and move toward greater church unity.
    My question for you arises from the greater historical context of Cyprian. Do you find it troublesome in any way that the general Roman Catholic Church tempered Cyprian’s approach to the lapsari? Do you think that the incipient doctrine of “ex opera operato” that came to rule (i.e., that sacraments are valid apart from the validity of their celebrants) in any way undermines Cyprian’s argument in Unity?
    Your program for church unity, I think, integrates well with this position, I just wanted to hear your thoughts on what role Cyprian should play in this whole discussion of unity.
    Thanks, Jacob

    1. mmchanb Avatar
      mmchanb

      Great question, thank you. There are two issues at play in Cyprian’s “Unity”: Ekklesial oneness and the efficacy of sacraments. While the latter is important to Cyprian, I avoided addressing it for the sake of space. He got the larger picture right though, that the Church is not divided. Nothing bugs me more than claims of Christian factions that their faction is the only true church. One segment of the Protestant “Church of Christ” is an example. I’m not as well studied as many of Conciliar Post’s readers and contributors, so someone may correct me on the following which I also left out of the article for space, but offer in answer to your question:

      It appears to me that Novation was quite like the Protestants, leaving in a huff and establising his own group, similar even to the “Old Catholic Church” and “Old Faith” Eastern Orthodoxy in Russia. While “ex opere operato” tempered Cyprian’s argument of sacramental efficay, I do not know that Rome ever tempered Cyprian’s idea that those who depart are still part of the one true Church. Unlike the more exclusive wing of Church of Christ, I understand (perhaps incorrectly) that Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy teach that there are Christians outside of the Church, an idea Cyprian rejected whole heartedly, as do I. The exclusive segment of Church of Christ teaches that those outside of their fellowship are not even Christian.

      I view Novation as foolish, but I (unlike Cyprian) see Novation as never having left the one true Church. I do not understand “ex opere operato” however, as having tempered that claim by Cyprian.

      1. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Matthew, could you expand on this quote: “Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy [teach] that there are
        Christians outside of the Church, an idea Cyprian rejected whole
        heartedly, as do I.” If you tell me more what you mean by this, perhaps I can address it from the Roman standpoint!

      2. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Thank you, Ben. As I commented, I welcome correction if I’ve misunderstood. It’s my understanding that both branches consider themselves the only true Church, therefore reach out to believers outside of their fold as Christians needing to come into to the one true Church. Is that correct?

      3. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Hey Matt, so here’s where I was coming from: your phrase “…[teach] that there are Christians outside the Church” made me think of the maxim “extra ecclesiam nulla salus,” “outside the Church there is no salvation.” This means that:

        1) No one can be a Christian and also be outside the Church. Hence,
        2) One can be Christian, and not (yet) be in full communion with the Church as it subsists here on earth (more on that in L.G. quote below).

        As we state in our catechism on this topic: “All salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body” (see http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm), this is the same doctrine taught in the catchy title “Unitatis Redintegratio.”

        I believe Orthodox would take a similar position. And just to clarify, we are divided from each other by a schism, but this is not a schism that has created two Holy Catholic and Apostolic Churches. It means that we have broken off from full communion with one another, but still respect one another’s traditions, doctrines, and sacraments as being valid while we hope for the resolution of our differences. The situation with non-Apostolic Churches is only different insofar as we do not acknowledge their sacraments to be valid, but we still respect their traditions and doctrines while hoping for unity.

        Here’s a passage that may clarify or obfuscate, from what is probably the most important Vatican II document, Lumen Gentium:

        Christ, the one Mediator, established and continually sustains here on earth His holy Church, the community of faith, hope and charity, as an entity with visible delineation (9*) through which He communicated truth and grace to all. But, the society structured with hierarchical organs and the Mystical Body of Christ, are not to be considered as two realities, nor are the visible assembly and the spiritual community, nor the earthly Church and the Church enriched with heavenly things; rather they form one complex reality which coalesces from a divine and a human element.(10*) For this reason, by no weak analogy, it is compared to the mystery of the incarnate Word. As the assumed nature inseparably united to Him, serves the divine Word as a living organ of salvation, so, in a similar way, does the visible social structure of the Church serve the Spirit of Christ, who vivifies it, in the building up of the body.(73) (11*) … his Church constituted and organized in the world as a society, subsists in the Catholic Church, which is governed by the successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him,(13*) although many elements of sanctification and of truth are found outside of its visible structure. These elements, as gifts belonging to the Church of Christ, are forces impelling toward catholic unity.

      4. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Thank you for taking valuable time out to reply, Ben. I don’t mean to be rude, but aren’t “schisms” that are not divisions just semantics or at the very least, a misnomer?

        I take from your reply that Rome sees three tiers of the Church with itself at the top, then insuburdinate but sacramental Eastern Orthodoxy, and finally insubordinate/non-sacramental Protestants. If I got that wrong, please correct me; those are not your words of course. Where do Oriental Orthodoxy and the Assyrian Church of the East fit among those three categories (if at all)?

        Assyrian Christians are the only branch that does not tend to place itself at the top of their idea of a Christian pyramid. It’s embarrassing that four of the five branches think their branch is superior to all other Christians. We follow the One who disrobed to wash Judas’ feet and whose apostles taught us to consider others greater. It would help to have more of that attitude today. If that sounds like an attack on Rome, forgive me. I lay the same blame at the feet of three other branches and lament my own failure in this area.

      5. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Thank you for the sustained engagement! You certainly have a point about semantic versus real differences. I of course would tend to think that the differences between Apostolic communions are not fully real(izable), or at minimum that these differences are easier to surmount than our differences with groups who do not try to embrace the whole history of the Church. Yet turning to ourselves before “picking the speck” from another, we in the West are certainly guilty of ignoring large swathes of Church History… not the least of which being that Church History which comes from our brothers and sisters in the “Churches of the East” (i.e. the non-Orthodox but still Apostolic communions). I don’t really have a satisfying response to your note about the current situation, other than to point toward positive developments. In school, I have learned about the importance of place that is due to these communities–although academic books, talks, and projects are very slowly picking up on this new area of interest (Jake Prahlow’s mentor Jeff Wicks is doing good work on Syriac now). On Conciliar Post, I have learned (mainly from you) that we must ask tough questions when it comes to describing a truly “ecumenical” consensus. Finally, I have learned from the recent leaders of the Roman communion that we must allow a high degree of flexibility when we hope for the reunion of our splintered Body (whether Protestants are part of that body is a question I’ll leave the Church to answer, but the answer is somethign like ‘Yes, but o a degree lesser than other Apostolic Communions’, see for example http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20070629_responsa-quaestiones_en.html). In 2001, the Vatican accepted as Apostolic the liturgy of Addai and Mari EVEN THOUGH it does not contain the words of institution. This is a very clear example of one Church going “against” its well-established tradition (i.e. the words of institution, which we can’t imagine not saying) in order to reach out, as is now necessary in today’s world, with the hope of resolving differences or at least creating “equal status” viewpoints on both sides. I’m not saying this kind of stuff always happens, only that I am optimistic about the future given the recent direction taken by our Pontiffs. See http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_councils/chrstuni/documents/rc_pc_chrstuni_doc_20011025_chiesa-caldea-assira_en.html

      6. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        I appreciate with your perspective, Ben. In my readings, the most obstinate branch of Christianity is the Coptic wing of Oriental Orthodoxy against the Assyrian Church of the East. They are so proud of Cyril it seems, that no room is allowed for the followers of Nestorius to be orthodox.

        I agree with your optimism. There are a few good signs of dialogue and desire between most other branches. The work of Pope John Paul II with Assyrians and the dialogue between Oriental and Eastern Orthodoxy’s have been particularly encouraging. The more our humility, the greater the benefit – not just between branches of Christianity, but in my/our own local family and community relationships. Thanks again for your feedback!

      7. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Thank you for continuing to work through this with me, and teach me things I did not know!

      8. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I think, perhaps, the one thing that should not be overlooked in your sympathy towards the non-Chalcedonian Orthodoxy is the miracle of St. Euphemia, whom we commemorate today. At the council of Chalcedon, the monophysite text and the Orthodox text were placed on the tomb of St. Euphemia and they entreated her to help them determine which was the truth. Guards were put in place to ensure no one messed with the documents. In the morning, the Orthodox text was at her head and the monophysite text was at her feet.

        That being said, there is great movement today towards reunion with the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox Christians. Their beliefs today are, for all intents and purposes, Orthodox—though their articulation is different. However, it would be absolutely vital to nail down and agree upon an articulation. The main problem is a practical one—how do we account for “saints” in the non-Chalcedonian Orthodox that are not in our canon? How do we explain to the people, etc.

        Aside from this (though I hope I’m not attempting to revive a closed conversation) I think it is important to note that Novation, for instance, was excommunicated. If Novation never left the Church (even after excommunication) does that mean that Arius never left the Church?

      9. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Thank you, Ben. This incident with Saint Euphemia that you describe is news to me. At first brush, it hardly sounds like grounds for determing orthodoxy, but I look forward to reading more on the topic.

        Perhaps you’re unaware, but the term “monophysite” is a pejorative, which the myaphisite have always rejected. It is akin to calling Roman Catholics “papists.” Monophysitism is a heresy and has always been treated as such by the Oriental Orthodox.

        Personally, I cannot equate Arius and Novation, but perhaps I don’t yet know enough. Here is my limited understanding:
        One was not an apostolically appointed bishop, the other was. One denied the deity of the Lord Jesus, the other affirmed it. One and poisoned the body from within with heretical doctrine. The other strove too hard at maintaining the piety of the church and departed for that purpose. Both were arrogant and foolish in their conduct. To date, I have little interest in defining whether Arius “left” since he was thoroughly heretical. I am sincerely open to learning however.

      10. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I suppose my point was both were excommunicated. The thing in question is ecclesiology and/or Apostolic Succession. Mia and Mono—I am familiar forgive the mix-up. Regardless of this, there was a reason, at least in my opinion, the Orthodox did not except the “fusion” (mia) model of Christology.

      11. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Thak you. I agree wholeheartedly with Cyprian’s system in the case of Arius. Cyprian quoted the Apostle as would I, “They went out from us because they were not of us.” Arius was not of us, that is to say he rejected the triune God and the incarnate Lord of Ephesians 4:1-5. That’s how I differentiate the excommunications of Novation and Luther from Arius. Excommunication punishes true Christians on occasion by treating them like outsiders. To my knowledge, it is not claimed to actually make them nonbelievers?

        Regarding rejection of mia, I doubt you’ll agree with my assessment of Chalcedon. It appears to me a heated political affair with little listening done on the part of Dioscorus or his opponents. Like Nestorius before him, Diosocorus was very political, arrogant, divisive, and orthodox. The first three faults can get a man excommunicated despite one’s orthodoxy. Both of these men took up the sword of politics and learned the truth that “he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.”

        There is a coptic (miaphysite) church on the North side of Memphis. I look forward to visiting it and learning more about their spirituality. I’ve searched for an equivalent in the other four braches of Christianity to the grand spirituality of Eastern Orthodoxy. Thus far, I have been disappointed in the search.

      12. Ben Cabe Avatar

        This is helpful to know.

        Like I have intimated several times, I think it’s important to hearken to the councils and the authority of the Church. But, that being said, I think there is great oikonomia here. And I hope for a reunion in the future (between Eastern / Coptic, etc).

      13. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Really cool stuff, guys. Just out of curiosity, has either of you read Arius: History and Tradition by Rowan Williams? I think both he and other academics (like Khaled Anatolios, in Retrieving Nicaea) make a convincing case that Arius himself is often conflated with the later expositions of his views. I can expand more on this when I get home to my books–but let me know if that would be helpful?

        Also, I can see where Ben is coming from about excommunication. While there is certainly a spectrum when it comes to its impact/import, we must also believe that excommunication means a person is barred from communion with the Church on Earth–and that this has heavenly ramifications as well. As I highlighted in my comment about picking the speck, I don’t think it’s the place of us laypeople (and ultimately, of any human being insofar as he/she is human) to opine with finality about the eternal fate of anyone. This is why, as Von Balthasar points out, the Catholic Church has never said any particular person is damned to hell. See my piece on “Dare We Hope” 🙂 http://conciliarpost.com/theology-spirituality/dare-we-hope-for-the-salvation-of-all/

      14. Paul Pavao Avatar

        There has to be one that is not Coptic because I met the priest. He came to our men’s meeting on Saturday morning for at least four weeks. I’ll ask a friend of mine and let you know privately where the other Orthodox church would be.

      15. mmchanb Avatar
        mmchanb

        Hi, Paul. There are at least two Eastern Orthodox congregations around here, the big on on Highland and a small one in Bartlett.

  5. mmchanb Avatar
    mmchanb

    I’m not familiar with Rowan Williams. Sounds like quite a stretch, but a potentially interesting read.

  6. Paul Pavao Avatar

    A thought on Arius. Thedoret, a 5th century historian, quotes a letter from Arius to “Alexander the pope.” It is not addressed to him because it is a statement of faith in his own defense. It says, “God, being the cause of all things is unbegun and altogether sole, but the Son being begotten apart from time by the Father and being created and founded before ages, was not [i.e. did not exist] before his generation. … He is not eternal, co-eternal, or co-unoriginate with the Father.”

    I don’t think later generations need to add anything to this. Isn’t this the main thing Arius was known for and excommunicated for? “Before he was begotten, he was not.” If we accept the Nicene Creed, then those who say such things are anathema.

  7. Paul Pavao Avatar

    One question. Martin Luther did not leave the Roman Catholic Church by choice. He was kicked out, excommunicated by a papal bull. More accurately, John Eck skillfully trapped him, pointing out that by rejecting indulgences he was rejecting the authority of the councils. So, unless we agree with the Roman Catholic teaching on indulgences, we are as guilty as Martin Luther, because most Protestants would campaign against the very idea of indulgences as outrageously inaccurate novelty. I don’t have John Tetzel to deal with, so I’m sure I wouldn’t be as virulent as Luther, but I would be guilty of rejecting the doctrine that got Luther excommunicated. I think that even the Orthodox would reject indulgences.

    Your post here, Matthew, talks about those who “left” the RCC, but Luther did not leave. He was ejected.

    Now here I am in the 21st century. I was a Christian for quite a while before I understood Orthodox or RC claims on my loyalty. In order to be a part of either I would have to accept doctrines that I find demonstrably false and unknown to the apostolic era. Am I “Protestant,” or am I simply a spiritual descendant of outcasts with no way to get back in without sacrificing honesty.

    1. mmchanb Avatar
      mmchanb

      I find many of Luther’s writings sound intentionally combative. While I admit corruption in 16th century Roman hierarchy, Luther does not appear to me to be a lamb led to the slaughter. As I documented in “Forgotten Gospel,” he was quite a verbal brawler. I prefer Erasmus’ work at reforming from within over those of the Protesters. Despite the papal bull, I believe Luther left, and Rome eventually responded to his departure.

      Knowing you personally, I don’t consider you a Protester. To the contrary, you are a Christian. As Paul might have asked the Corinthians, “Has Christ been divided? Protester was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Protester?”

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