While Tiny Tim’s song may be quite catchy, the following tiptoe through TULIP series is no light-hearted matter since, depending on how Christians respond to this Calvinist framework, our understanding of who God is and how we are saved can end up in radical opposition.  I was a five-point Calvinist from high school until my time at an Evangelical seminary, but subsequently, one-by-one I began to drop letters of the TULIP complex from my theology until I realized that I could no longer espouse any of the five points and remain in union with early Christendom.

I would like to make an important clarification initially, that the term “Calvinism” is used in a restricted sense with regard to the TULIP acronym, for this acronym deals only with John Calvin’s soteriology [doctrine of salvation]. Modern “Calvinists” today are referred to as such because they embrace this soteriology.  But the soteriological aspect of Calvin’s views is only one tenet of true Calvinism, and most are not even aware of Calvin’s surprising perspectives on other ideas such as ecclesiology, Mariology, and many taboo doctrines that would scandalize modern Evangelicals.  I will, however, continue using the term “Calvinism” in the common sense of endearment towards Calvin on his ideas only of soteriology.

After having come to Orthodox Christianity, I did not possess a systematic alternative to the TULIP acronym in my theological toolbox with which to replace these teachings, because historically the Christian East never became so meticulously scholastic and philosophical on these matterssystematizing the knowledge of God into intellectually neat, contained, and invariable tenets.  Rather, the East retained the mystical and sacramental nature of Christianity as central to relationship with God.  But despite the absence of such a methodical substitute I will do my best to describe the paradigm from which the Orthodox are operating as they reciprocate with Calvinists today.

THE DOCTRINE OF TOTAL DEPRAVITY

Let us begin with a review of what John Calvin taught on the human condition after the Fall of Adam and the possibility of return to communion with God, the first item in the TULIP construct: Total Depravity.  He contends in his commentary on Genesis:

“. . . we must reflect upon our lamentable condition; namely, that the image of God being destroyed, or, at least, obliterated in us, we scarcely retain the faint shadow of a life, from which we are hastening to death.”[i]

And also on Gen. 3:1:

“In this chapter, Moses explains, that man, after he had been deceived by Satan revolted from his Maker, became entirely changed and so degenerate, that the image of God, in which he had been formed, was obliterated.”[ii]

Calvin’s favorite early writer from which he drew on quite frequently in an effort to display the historicity of his views on the extent of man’s fallenness and depravity was Saint Augustine of Hippo.  Saint Augustine, while considered a saint in the Eastern Church, is believed by nearly all Orthodox to have written very harshly in his articulation of the condition of mankind. The reason for these writings was due to Augustine’s dispute with Pelagius, a figure who had quite an optimistic outlook on the human condition and contended that a human being could potentially overcome his fallenness and attain salvation of his own will entirely apart from Divine grace.  Conversely, Augustine taught that,

“Because of the inherited depravity and corruption of sin . . . fallen humans are not free not to sin: ‘A man’s free will’ he wrote against Pelagius, ‘avails for nothing except to sin’. . . How can this be?  Augustine defined free will simply as doing what one wants to do . . . The Fall has so corrupted their motives and desires that sinning is all they want to do apart from God’s intervening grace.  Thus they are sinning ‘freely.’  Pelagius and his followers would almost certainly reject this idea of free will and argue that a person is only truly free if he could either sin or not sin.”[iii]

Augustine had been philosophically trained in a type of Persian paganism called Manichaeism prior to his conversion to Christianity, and it is often stated that he was probably lapsing into this dualistic philosophy that degraded the created order and its creatures as altogether evil when he violently reacted in his writings to the ideas Pelagius had put forth.  Whether or not this be the case, Augustine’s anthropology is not a good representation at all of that of the Orthodox Church, and his writings were rebutted with exact quotations by an Eastern saint named John Cassian, whose writings on the subject can be found here.  However, as we will see during the course of this series, Augustine’s writings did not make assertions as far and extreme as Calvin’s on many points.

Most non-Calvinist Evangelical Protestants do not take such a severe view of humanity, and are usually referred to as “Arminians,” [although Jacobus Arminius himself held to the doctrine of Total Depravity[iv]].  They instead use the term “sinful nature” in reference to the human condition.  This term has become so prevalent in America that it has unfortunately found its way into many English Bibles to translate the Greek word sarx meaning “flesh.”  While users of this term do not believe humanity to be completely depraved to the core and unable to commit or even conceive of anything righteous whatsoever, they do contend that the human being is generally evil by nature rather than only by choice.

THE MIND OF THE FATHERS

In contrast to this defeatist outlook on the human will and nature, I would like to spend some time considering how other prominent early figures of the Church approached this topic.  Irenaeus, a pupil of Polycarp who was discipled by the Apostle John, contended,

“Therefore, the prophets used to exhort men to what was good, to act justly and to work righteousness, as I have so largely demonstrated, because it is in our power to do so . . . [after reciting numerous Old Testament Scriptures] All such passages demonstrate the independent will of man, and at the same time the counsel which God conveys to him, by which He exhorts us to submit ourselves to Him, and seeks to turn us away from [the sin of] unbelief against Him, without, however, in any way coercing us.[v]

Theodoret of Cyrus states in his commentary on Romans,

“We do not sin from necessity or by compulsion; rather we are overcome by desire and do things which in principle we detest.”[vi]

Consider also the words of Saint John Chrysostom writing on Romans 7:20:

“Here Paul clears both the flesh and the soul from responsibility for sin, putting all the blame on the actions themselves.  For if the soul does not want to sin it is cleared of guilt, and if it does not perform the action itself the body too is let off the hook.  Everything may thus be blamed on the evil moral choice.  The essence of the soul and body and that of choice are not the same, for the first two are God’s works and the third is a motion from within ourselves which may go in whatever direction we choose to let it.  Of course, willing is natural and God-given, but willing in this way is from us and depends on our own mind.”[vii]

I believe this is why Christ said that the Spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak,[viii] not totally incapacitated; the flesh does not prevent our spirit from nonetheless being willing, desiring the good even though the consequences of the fall make the good action much more difficult.

Further, if it is not possible for human beings to ever avoid sin and instead choose obedience to God, it quickly becomes confusing as to how people can be judged in the end – either with reward or punishment – for lifestyles they had no control over whatsoever.  Cyril of Alexandria explains:

“It may be that someone who is forced to act against his will cannot be blamed for it, but at the same time no rational person will praise him for his godliness and righteousness either.  For why should somebody be praised for doing things against his own will, even if he is forced to do so by a power over which he has no control?”[ix]

FALLEN OR OBLITERATED?

I quoted Calvin above on the teaching that the image of God, in which humanity was created, was totally obliterated by the Fall.  The Apostle Paul talks about how creation is groaning because it has all been infected with the vicious disease of sin, [Rom. 8:19] but when we look at nature we still see the goodness that God created and called “good,” although we also see the consequences of the sin contagion played out in that good, beautiful nature.  God created humanity in His image, but if evil were to completely consume that good creature such that they could no longer be called “in His image” then they could not even be called “human” because they would no longer contain any trace of the good thing that God made.  But evil cannot consume what is good, it can only damage and contaminate it.  Evil has pervaded all things, but has not replaced them.  Paul in fact states in Romans 8:20-21 that all creation is in bondage and slavery to corruption, but that it will one day be delivered into the freedom of the glory of the children of God.  If evil swallowed up everything good that was left in humanity, however, it could not simply be set free from sin and death; it would have to be completely demolished and remade from scratch.  Yes, there is no part of us (heart, soul, mind, or body) that is left without the sickness of sin and its child, death.  But because every part has been infected does not mean that the virus has replaced what it infects.  If that ceased to exist, so would the virus.

The Greek word “image” is eikon where we get “icon.”  When Steve Jobs decided to transform the computer world by using icons in the operating system, this saved people from having to type in all that computer data because one click on the icon directed the computer to all that data which it represents.  We are literally icons of God, an icon being a representation that stands in the place of a greater reality.  The word “tree,” for example, is meaningless in its actual linguistic properties, but it is given meaning by those big plants outside to which it points.  To call a human being totally depraved with nothing good whatever about them is therefore not only to disrespect the dignity of something God created, it is disrespectful to God Himself since He is the greater Reality to which our very existence and nature point.

Tertullian wrote:

“The corruption of our nature is another nature having a god and father of its own – namely, the author of corruption.  Still, there is a portion of good in the soul, of that original, divine, and genuine good, which is its proper nature.  For that which is derived from God is obscured, rather than extinguished.  It can indeed be obscured, because it is not God.  However, it cannot be extinguished, for it comes from God . . . Thus some men are very bad, and some are very good.  Yet, the souls of everyone are all of one nature.  Even in the worst person, there is something good.  And even in the best person, there is something bad . . . Just as no soul is without sin, so neither is any soul without seeds of good.”[emphasis mine][x]

Athanasius, champion of the faith in the Arian controversy of the first Ecumenical council explained:

“For the Lord aforetime hath said, ‘The kingdom of heaven is within you’. . . If we abide as we have been made, we are in a state of virtue, but if we think of ignoble things we shall be accounted evil. If, therefore, this thing had to be acquired from without, it would be difficult in reality; but if it is in us, let us keep ourselves from foul thoughts. And as we have received the soul as a deposit, let us preserve it for the Lord, that He may recognize His work as being the same as He made it.”[xi]

THE INTEGRAL IMPORTANCE OF “INCARNATION”

Hebrews 2:17 states:

“Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation [a “covering” or “mercy seat,” not an appeasement but quite literally a “healing” for the consequences of sin] for the sins of the people.” [emphasis mine]

The fact that Mary gave birth to the God-Man in time is of utmost importance because it means that when the Holy Spirit impregnated her He did not simply create a fetus ex nihilo, out of nothing, but Mary is actually genetically responsible for Christ’s human nature.  If Joachim and Anna (Mary’s parents) were totally depraved by nature, they would have passed this depravity on to Mary and she by necessity would have had to pass it on to Christ because she is in fact genetically related to Christ Himself.

Let me return to the term sarx, which I mentioned many Evangelicals are calling the “sinful nature” of human beings.  This word in Latin is carnewhat we use in describing Christ’s becoming human, the “incarnation.” In the Evangelical view, this would mean that Christ assumed and united Himself to what the NIV Bible calls a “sinful nature.” This entire total depravity matter simply comes down to this: do we truly believe in the Incarnation?  This is the very center of our faith as Christians and it is impossible to be too careful or overly meticulous in how we understand and articulate this very nucleus of the Gospel itself.  We are not Gnostics.  Clearly, if Christ is “incarnate” such that He is of the exact same nature as the rest of us, then the terms “total depravity” and “sinful nature” are not the proper understanding of humanness, of that which Christ assumed.

What exactly it is that Christ “assumed” was central in every Ecumenical council, as heretical teachings emerged with some new nuance that somehow made Jesus something less than God or something less than human; usually the latter.  At the sixth Ecumenical council, when heretics were contending that Christ had both a human and Divine nature but only a Divine will, the official canon of the council’s conclusion responded: “What is not assumed is not healed.”

What Christ is serves as the quintessential model of what humanity was originally intended to be, such that if He differs in any minute way from what true humanness is, then we are not saved.  It cannot be clearer.  Our hope of salvation is to be transformed by the renewing of our mind into what Christ is, what He redeemed by assuming in His person. Therefore,  if being “human” is a state of total depravity, then we simply cannot get to Christ because “Immanuel” is not the case; God is not with us.  In contrast to this view, Christ exemplifies what humanness actually is so that we can abandon our dehumanization and join Him in glory, becoming truly human, the perfect image and likeness of God Himself.

        As 2 Corinthians 3:18 puts it,

        But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord.”

Stay tuned for further tiptoeing through TULIP.


[wpex more=”View Sources” less=”Hide Sources”]
[i] Calvin, John, Commentary on Genesis, Gen. 3:5 Vol. 1. Thomas Tymme, (trans.) London: 1578. Rev. John King, M.A. (trans.). Grand Rapids: Christian Classics Ethereal Library. , p. 159

[ii] Calvin, John, Commentary on Genesis, Vol. 1. Gen. 3:1, p. 90.

[iii] Olson, Roger E. The Story of Christian Theology. Downer’s Grove: InterVarsity Press. 1999. pp. 272-273.

[iv] See James Arminius, “Public Disputations,” The Works of James Arminius, London ed. James Nichols and William Nichols (trans.), Grand Rapids: Baker, 1996. Vol. 2 p. 192.

Also see Olson, Roger E. Arminian Theology: Myths and Realities. Downer’s Grove: InterVarsity Press. 1999. pp. 56-57.

[v] Irenaeus, The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus. Chapter XXXVII. Christian Classics Ethereal Library.  Accessed Oct. 24, 2015.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/anf01.ix.vi.xxxviii.html

[vi] Theodoret of Cyr. Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans. Cited in Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament VI Romans. p. 192

[vii] John Chrysostom. Romans 7:18. Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament VI Romans. Thomas C. Oden (Gen. Ed.). Downer’s Grove: InterVarsity Press. 1998. p. 194.

[viii] Matthew 26:41; Mark 14:38

[ix] Cyril of Alexandria. Explanation of the Letter to the Romans. Cited in Interpretation of the Letter to the Romans. Cited in Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture: New Testament VI Romans. p. 192

[x] Tertullian, Ante-Nicene Fathers Vol. 3. Chapter XLI. Part I: “Notwithstanding the Depravity of Man’s Soul by Original Sin, There is Yet Left a Basis Whereon Divine Grace Can Work for Its Recovery by Spiritual Regeneration.”

http://st-takla.org/books/en/ecf/003/0030245.html

[xi] Athanasius. Life of Saint Anthony, 20. http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/2811.htm

 

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26 responses to “An Ex-Calvinist’s Tiptoe Through TULIP – Total Depravity”

  1. George Aldhizer Avatar
    George Aldhizer

    Joseph, I always appreciate your articles. They are always well written, well researched, and long (which means I learn a lot). As someone who believes in total depravity, and finds it the most defensible of Calvinist doctrines, I have a few points of response to your piece.

    I think there has to be a realization that today’s Calvinists do not draw their “Calvinism” primarily from Calvin. I do think your comment on the soteriology of Calvin being more influential today than others of his thoughts, but I still think some of your analysis doesn’t stick well with modern-day beliefs in TULIP. This different Calvinism from Calvin I think differs from your analysis in a number of ways.

    First, I think most modern day Calvinists do not think that the Image of God is obliterated with the fall. I’m with you, that I think this would mean we are no longer human, and I do not believe this is true. Total depravity, as I read it in the thoughts of today’s Calvinists, centers on the truth that sin affects every part of what it means to be human. It affects our minds, bodies, labors, politics, etc etc.

    Second and related, there is a well-developed view of common grace in the minds of today’s Calvinists (that does not originate with Calvin). Humanity is split between those in Christ and those outside of Christ (“special” grace being differentiated), to be true, but all of humanity is gifted with various graces that do not bear on salvation.

    Third, I think your comments on Incarnation are something of a straw man. I’m no expert, and I’m certainly generalizing, but it seems from the Calvinists I read that Christ does not assume our totally depraved nature, for he is more human than we are. That is part of the beauty of the Incarnation, Christ shows what it is to be human. To be totally depraved is to fall into that which is not human.

    I think total depravity, taken outside of the (I believe) wrong view of Calvin’s “obliteration” view, is true. We are dead in our sin, our good works are not seen as truly good outside of Christ, no amount of good can do away with our status as dead in sin, separated from God. I think the truth of total depravity, as today’s Calvinists use it (and as you note, earlier Arminians agree), is very beneficial to showing the beauty of the gospel. And, it seems to me, this truth can and ought to be embraced by all Christians, not just Calvinists, and not just westerners.

    1. Joseph Green Avatar
      Joseph Green

      Hi George,

      Thanks for reading.
      I want to apologize in advance if my response seems a little too candid
      or short, because I do sincerely appreciate your willingness to
      reciprocate. You’re the only
      response I’ve gotten so far; none of my Calvinist facebook friends paid this
      article any attention.

      Your assertion that today’s Calvinists do not primarily draw
      on Calvin I believe is a central part of my point, as I want Calvinists to take
      the time to know and learn what Calvin himself believed. And I also believe that your
      distinction of modern Calvinism as the true version rather than the version
      that Calvin believed is a big aid to my perspective.

      It seems that when Calvinists are willing to go beyond Piper
      and Grudem and Sproul to actually study Calvin, they either abandon Calvinism
      altogether or they conclude that Calvin was confused and it is the modern,
      contemporary scholars who have actually gotten things nailed down. My thinking is that if one is going to
      call himself a Calvinist, let him be a Calvinist. If he desires to concoct and adhere to his own doctrinal
      versions of everything, let him start his own ecclesial movement like Calvin
      did.

      Here is an example as to why I think the latter is
      problematic. As I said in the
      article, I was a Calvinist for years, and attended an Evangelical seminary from
      2012-2013, where I wrote my thesis on Calvinist and Arminian soteriology,
      investigating deep academic positions and articulations from both Calvin and
      Arminius as well as numerous modern scholars. Shortly after seminary I came to Orthodoxy. Yet now, these short years later I am
      being accused of falling out of touch with the true modern Calvinism of today
      since my version is outdated and not representative of the new and improved
      Calvinism that theologians have now finally gotten right. Who is to say the same thing will not
      be the case next century, or the next generation, or next year for that
      matter?

      You see, in Evangelicalism the Scriptures are approached as
      standing alone without any authoritative interpretation along with them, and
      therefore the historic Tradition and Fathers of the Church as well as modern
      scholars can be quoted and given allegiance on matters that line up with our
      own interpretation. But when we
      disagree they all can be put back into their cages and ignored as primitive,
      ignorant figures of a bygone era that are not to be paid attention since they
      were not up to speed with the informed and contemporary expertise of the modern
      man. This inevitably causes the
      true, apostolic, historically grounded, doctrinally sound Christian faith to become
      a perpetually moving target.

      I quoted just a few Church Fathers in this article, but
      there are many, MANY more quotes that can be shown to simply be incompatible
      with the notion of a totally depraved humanity. What do we do with that? Can we really be prideful enough to completely ignore the
      consensus of two millennia of spiritual giants and martyrs and saints because
      we should only follow our own heart in what we think is the plain meaning of
      the Scriptures (here two millennia removed from the linguistic and cultural
      context of their origin) because we are scholastically superior in our
      theological knowledge?

      I mentioned at the beginning of my article that I struggle
      to provide systematic alternatives to this systematic Calvinist system because
      the East never became so academic and scholastic in its theology. What drains me about engaging in these
      discussions is that we immediately wander into a labyrinth of overly technical
      terminology and distinctions of this or that kind of Divine grace as opposed to
      some other nuanced term, categorizing people, God, and how He interacts with us
      into all sorts of abstract regions to the point of mental exhaustion. This is simply way the dickens more complicated
      intellectual gymnastics than it ever should become. God is God – perfect, holy, and all good and loving. Man is made to reflect this nature but
      he has become broken and thus began reflecting brokenness, madness,
      non-humanness. Christ is God and
      became man to repair its brokenness, and as such was the first true human,
      depicting what we were designed to be.
      GRACE IS GRACE, and God gives it to all indiscriminately who desire to
      receive it, for He shows no favoritism [Acts 10:34; Rom. 2:11; Eph. 6:9]. I affirmed in the article that
      Orthodoxy acknowledges the complete ubiquitous consequences of the Fall as
      affecting every aspect of personhood, and I am glad to know that you understand
      this as not true humanness, and of Christ being what true humanity looks
      like. But to use the language of total depravity, and of our very nature being wholly sinful and evil is
      simply not appropriate and misleading.
      It is inconsistent to my mind to affirm a possession of the image of God
      on the one hand and on the other to refer to humans with such complete
      repudiation of anything good at all.
      Our nature is what God created, and is therefore good. And if we are wholly depraved wretches
      with no goodness in us whatever, than Calvin and Edwards and the rest would agree
      that we are not but monsters in the hands of an angry God and our very
      existence is futile nonsense. Why
      would we protest abortion, for it is naught but the dispensing of monstrous,
      evil beasts who deserve to burn in Hell for eternity anyway?

      In the Orthodox Church we continue to use incense in all our
      services, and the ancient practice is that at certain points the priest will
      come out from censing the altar and will swing the sensor towards every person
      in attendance. This is in recognition that, were even Hitler or Stalin to enter
      the church building, they would still be reverenced as bearing the image of God
      and, as such, they are a living altar.
      This is why Peter says to honor all men [1 Pet. 2:17]. God’s residence is not confined to a
      building, for we worship in Spirit and in truth. Mankind was made to be an altar of sweet smelling incense to
      the Lord, and he progressively becomes such when he chooses to pick up his
      cross and follow the Lord down the narrow path. Thousands of relics of historic saints have been emitting
      fragrances, oil, myrrh, and other miraculous heavenly elements for centuries
      and millennia because in life they lived up to what they were made to be, and
      reposed as tabernacles and altars of the Holy Spirit. This is simply not possible for totally depraved creatures
      with a sinful nature.

      It is difficult to discuss the “ability to choose God”
      aspect of total depravity without addressing the other tenets of the TULIP
      acronym, which I will leave to future articles. But the fact is that asserting that all of humanity is incapable
      of choosing to follow God – at all, period – is based on overly sensationalized
      readings of obscure Scripture verses that fly in the face of the entire rest of
      the Scriptures, the Fathers, and the historic practice and teachings of the
      Christian faith. The more I study
      it, the less sense it all makes. It
      blows my mind that, when faced with overwhelming evidence to the contrary,
      especially that of how the early Church understood and applied these Scriptures,
      Calvinists insist on embracing this innovation and shrug off the very clear,
      direct substantiation that this view is absurd; even blasphemous.

      Again I apologize for being direct, I do not mean to be
      offensive. Thank you for your
      critiques and remarks, and I hope to hear from you in the future.

      God bless.

      1. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        *commenting here so that I’ll be emailed with any future replies!* I find this conversation to be fascinating.

      2. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        No. not at all, I don’t think you were being offensive at all. I think my response will not necessarily be the best one for the purposes of debate. Personally, the ecclesiological debates of this blog have me in something of a theological spin, and as a result of this ecclesiological confusion I’m not sure I can any longer argue hard-and-fast hold that 5 point Calvinism is the truth (maybe Jeff Hart can take up that position for us). Though, like I said, I find the T of total depravity to be most defensible and most beneficial of the Calvinistic doctrines (looking specifically at the five points) to broader clarifications of what the gospel is.

        I appreciate your having written this article from the standpoint of Calvin, instead of this thing we are calling “Calvinism.” I certainly consider myself one of the Calvinists (at least historically) drawn not by Calvin himself but by Calvinist proclamations of the gospel. I fall into that stereotype to that extent. However, I’m not willing to argue for a “true Calvinism,” whatever that would mean, but instead to argue that the Calvinist expression of total depravity as it is articulated today is beneficial to ecumenical theology of the gospel. It certainly is fascinating that modern evangelical Calvinism is not intent on being true to Calvin, but I’m not particularly interested in arguing for a “truer Calvinism” (not quite sure whether or not I even believe it).

        I’m also not willing to make the argument of denying the authority of the church fathers in this discussion, I would love to be corrected by them if necessary in this discussion. (The arguments surrounding apostolic succession are another source of my ecclesiological woes). I agree with your argument against chronological snobbery.

        I’m not so sure if I agree with your conclusion surrounding the overly-systematized nature of a lot of today’s theology. It seems that Catholics as well as Calvinists would have a gripe with you about that. Though, I am partial to the sentiment, it seems that it is important for theology to be academic to a certain degree, but I’m not all that intent on that argument as well.

        To move to the meat of maybe where we disagree. I’m not sure that the logical conclusions of total depravity (as modern Calvinism uses it) result in a life of “futile nonsense,” or abortion as non-protestable, or even being anti-incense/saints/relics (I realize the irony of saying Calvinistic doctrine does not preclude such things). This is of course provided that the image of God is not obliterated by the fall, I certainly grant that that point of Calvin is despicable. I’ll move to a few reasons why I find total depravity to be important for any Christian theological understanding, east or west. (I apologize about the lack of scriptural support, I’m not quite qualified/don’t have the necessary time to do so. I’m using “total depravity” to roughly mean “all of the human experience is tainted by sin, and that sin separates us from God outside of God’s initiating work to redeem”)

        First, it tells the truth about who human beings are. Our beings, our activities, our institutions, our communities are all tainted with sin. (I realize that most Calvinists do not make the communal/institutional *turn* in reference to total depravity, but that is to our shame, see places like “Comment magazine” to be a Calvinistic example that does make this essential institutional turn) This is helpful to clarify both how salvation is both individual (it restores every aspect of our being to God) and communal (for even the systems that humans create are tainted by sin). The reconciliation of the gospel restores every aspect of human being, for all of it is tainted by sin. How much more does sanctification effect if the gospel is to be seen in this light! And how more beautiful the resurrection!

        Second, it places a spotlight on the work of the trinity to redeem us. Salvation is (to maybe be reductionistic) the work of the will of the Father, the work of the Son, and the applying work of the Spirit. Total depravity shows us that we are wholly reliant on the work of God to save us. And, I think it does reveal very true (and very radical) thing about human nature (post-fall). We are prone to self-righteousness and pride! We are enslaved to sin and its effects! These truths may be taken to the extreme (in the denial of the image of God) but they ought never be softened, for that would only prove the point of total depravity. It seems that your incredulity against humanity being “incapable of following God” is misplaced, for the scriptures language of “enslavement, dead” etc. seem to make that very point (outside of God’s work of course).

        I dunno, it seems to me that Calvinism does an incredible job on two points. It works very hard to show the deep and abiding reality of sin in the human experience, and the deep and abiding reality of God’s work in saving us. Calvinism/ists are probably bad for a lot of things, but on these two (essential) parts of the gospel, the beauty of Christianity can be crystal clear.

      3. Joseph Green Avatar
        Joseph Green

        George,

        I think my beef here is more with the terms being used than your personal understanding and articulation of them. You say you like them because the reality of the state of humanity ought never to be softened, but I would submit that these terms inevitably go the opposite extreme of an outright assault, being beaten down, and erasing of human beings from the picture and making God into a sadistic puppeteer. I apologize for the cliche accusations but I’m not sure how else to say it because no matter how hard we try to explain and rationalize that we are not robots that God hates, the Calvinist model simply can’t help but perpetually arrive at that conclusion if we are honest about it.

        Correct doctrine would definitely affirm and proclaim the exhaustive effects of sin and death, but our overcoming the problem in Christ does not consist in dwelling on our wretchedness, beating ourselves up, and proclaiming to the world a message all about how evil and despicable everyone is. The healing comes from turning altogether from the darkness and focusing on the light of Christ; thinking positively rather than dwelling on not thinking negatively. The Fathers constantly talk about overcoming the passions and the demons by not entertaining or even addressing the demons and the thoughts they tempt us with, but rather to immediately begin saying the Jesus prayer or sing hymns or read Scripture, etc. If we want to get better we must avoid the contagion of sin altogether, not wallow in our own self-misery and constantly preach about everyone being rotten to the core.

        The gospel is a proclamation of the love of God for all, that no matter how much we’ve screwed up, we still possess a Divine spark that, through Christs assuming and healing humanness, can be fanned into the flame of God’s love for all and we can “repent,” literally make a mid-course correction and get back on target, to stop “missing the mark.” A totally depraved being cannot undergo such an intrinsic transformation; just an external absolvement to get off the hook.

      4. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        So, again, two qualifications of how I differ from a lot of Calvinism. I do not believe in determinism/compatibilism. I believe in the freedom of the will, though that will is given over to sin outside of Christ. I don’t believe that God is a puppeteer (which I believe compatibilist/determinist conceptions fall into). Also, I believe in theosis/sanctification, I think a lot of Calvinists find it hard to believe in serious moral cultivation in this life. So I’m with you in those two reservations.

        I guess maybe my questions to you would be, how does your tradition engage with/take seriously the biblical notions of “wrath,” “dead in sin,” “enslaved to sin,” “sheep vs. goats,” “wheat vs. chaff,” “weeping and gnashing of teeth,” and “hell”? The Scriptures dwell on the causes, pervasiveness, and results of sin very seriously.

        On a very practical level, I think that the “healing” that you speak of requires much dwelling on sin. We need to dwell on how sin takes over our desires, and how the Spirit is calling us out of them. And having *lived* as a Calvinist for the past four years, I think that is very true of the lived reality of Calvinists. We do dwell on our sin, but so that we can deny it, and worship the God who has saved us from it.

      5. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        It seems maybe we are just speaking of two sides of the same coin of sanctification, a denial of self and a living to righteousness. I just don’t see the critique of “sadistic puppeteer” being played out in the lived reality of Calvinist Christians (or in the theory of the Calvinism I’m speaking of), no matter the harshness of Calvin, Edwards, et al.

      6. Jeff Hart Avatar
        Jeff Hart

        FYI, George, I just posted a lengthy response that you may be interested in. Not sure if you would get a notification since I didn’t reply to this particular thread.

      7. George Aldhizer Avatar
        George Aldhizer

        Thanks dawg.

      8. Ben Cabe Avatar

        Find an EO priest and ask him to help you read through the Philokalia (4 volumes). He will likely decline, but worth a try. The Philokalia can be a dangerous work to read but details man’s freeing from the fetters of sin (passion). How one does this, etc.

        The entire aim of Orthodox life is this: theosis. It is all Christocentric.

        Probably not a cohesive response (as i thought at first). But there is a great depth to Orthodoxy. One that, in my experience, does not exist everywhere. It’s like, “oh, I’m in deep water” and then you get pulled deeper. I didn’t think there was anything deeper when I was a Protestant, I delved into the vanity of philosophy thinking I had found something far more profound, or perhaps a more profound “reading of Christianiry” (Kierkegaard, Plato, Kant, Leibniz) than anything I could find in Christianity (Bible, whatever). I was wrong.

        Reading philosophy can be helpful; reading the Scriptures guided by the fathers, the Orthodox Church who is ultimately lead by the Holy Spirit,
        Is far, far better. There aren’t words for it.

  2. Jeff Hart Avatar
    Jeff Hart

    Wow, Conciliar Post is a busy place this week! I’m working through the rest of the comments here, and hopefully I’ll have something to contribute to the conversation once I have finished (although it may need to wait until the weekend due to other constraints on my time). Looks like a great conversation so far!

  3. Benjamin Winter Avatar
    Benjamin Winter

    Here’s a thought that tries to reduce this debate to elementary terms:

    Doctrine A: We’re good, but we can (and do) do bad things
    Dangers: Focusing too much on our good actions, or, not caring enough about our bad actions

    Doctrine B: We’re bad, but we can (and do) do good things
    Dangers: Focusing too much on our bad actions, or, not caring enough about our good actions

    Clearly in a Christian life we need to balance “Doctrine A” and “Doctrine B.”

    If the human will is free (as George mentions, above) then this means we are free to DO both good and bad things.

    It think that, on a very practical level, I’d rather run the risk of having folks focus too much on the good things they can do (i.e. focus on DOING good), rather than focusing too much on the bad things they do. And how often do you find yourself saying to someone else: “You’re doing too many good works?”

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      I think you’re right, though with the understanding that we are referring specifically to Christians. The scriptures use language that is very far from “good” to refer to humans outside of Christ. Also, we must recognize that doing “good works” brings a serious temptation to self righteousness and pride (something the reformed tradition is want to emphasize).

      And I want to clarify that my thinking on free will is different from Christian to non Christian (summarized well within jeffs post).

      1. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Humans who aren’t Christians can still act with self-giving love though, right? In my eyes, that sort of behavior models Christ and is therefore in some mysterious ways a participation in the mystery of his humanity. Does it save them? Not for us to decide, but I believe we can hope, and certainly we can pray for “all men of good will.” Otherwise you make it sound like only Christians can do good things, only Christians can enjoy life on this world and live well (in the holistic sense).

  4. Jeff Hart Avatar
    Jeff Hart

    Phew, caught up on the comments. Lot’s to interact with.

    Let me begin by saying that I’m hesitant to wear the label “Calvinist” for two reasons. For one, because Calvinism tends to be reduced to the five points of TULIP when it’s really far more; and second, because Calvin isn’t the sole progenitor or developer of Calvinism. While we certainly wouldn’t have Calvinism without Calvin, we also wouldn’t have Calvin without Augustine (or Augustine without Christ) and we wouldn’t have the further development of Calvin’s thought without those who came after him. For those reasons, I would prefer the label “Reformed,” because it more readily encompasses the whole of the Calvinistic tradition without all of the negative baggage that tends to come along with the Calvinism label. In addition, I think the “Reformed” label captures the historical continuity stretching back to the church fathers (and, of course, Scripture) that I see in this system of theology rather than viewing it as something that only arose in the 16th century with Calvin. That being said, I do believe that Reformed theology is the best encapsulation of the theology of scripture. More could be said on that point, but this is not the time/place.

    I’ll also preface the remainder of my comments by saying that it appears that you (Joseph) have read Calvin more widely than I have at this point. So my understanding of the particulars of his theology is almost certainly incomplete.

    That being said, I was surprised when I came across this line in your piece: “there is no part of us (heart, soul, mind, or body) that is left without the sickness of sin and its child, death. But because every part has been infected does not mean that the virus has replaced what it infects.” That line seems to accurately capture what I believe (perhaps mistakenly) to be Calvin’s doctrine of total depravity. It is certainly consistent with the Reformed doctrine of total depravity (although I may quibble over the sickness/death distinction, since Scripture does seem clear that we are dead in sin, not merely sick). I would actually prefer the term “pervasive depravity” to ameliorate the confusion on this point. Depravity reaches to every part of human existence (it is pervasive), yet we are not as bad as we possibly could be (the sense often taken with the term total).

    In addition, Calvin explicitly states in the Institutes that “even though we grant that God’s image was not totally annihilated and destroyed in [Adam], yet it was so corrupted that whatever remains is frightful deformity” which can only be restored by the second Adam, Christ (1.15.4). I find the language of Calvin that you cite to be strange in light of this quote, considering that this one comes directly from the portion of the Institutes where he is addressing the nature of the imago dei (both pre-fall and post-fall). Either the sense of the words he used in the quotes you cited are not as you take them, or the words themselves have shifted in meaning, or Calvin himself had a change of opinion (I would lean towards the first option). To address your comment in response to George, on this basis I don’t see Calvin (or Calvinism) as a theological moving target (although, I can’t necessarily say the same for modern evangelicalism).

    As George has already noted, the idea of total depravity needs to be understood in conjunction with common grace. (Contra George, though, the idea of common grace is most certainly found in Calvin, although the term itself may be anachronistic.) Common grace restrains sin and enables otherwise depraved individuals to accomplish good, both morally and materially. So strictly speaking, it is not the unregenerate individual doing this good (since their acts, apart from God, are as filthy rags), but God working graciously in and through him to produce good. It’s no trouble at all for God to use broken instruments to accomplish his purposes.

    We must also consider how our state changes when we are regenerated and united to Christ. It seems that several of the quotes you drew from church fathers would fit in this category. When we are born again, God graciously changes our constitutions such that we desire and are able to do good. Sin still dwells in our flesh, but we are no longer slaves to it (hence the quote from Theodoret of Cyrus).

    I think George has already answered your comments on the Incarnation well. I would just want to add that your argument against total depravity on the basis of the Incarnation cuts against the idea of *any* inborn sin in man, not just total depravity. Even if Mary (or her parents, or her grandparents…) were just a little depraved, it seems that that would result in the same problem you identify.

    As far as the relation between scripture and tradition goes, I’m going to table that for now since I’m working on some pieces that will address that very question. For now, suffice it to say that I think the voices of the church fathers are critical and must not be ignored, but they are not authoritative in the sense that scripture is. They were fallible men just like Calvin and the rest of us.

    Now, the debate over man’s responsibility in light of total depravity is a complicated one that is probably best addressed elsewhere, so for now, I’ll simply use the words C.H. Spurgeon used on the question of God’s sovereignty and man’s responsibility: I never try to reconcile friends (paraphrase from sermon 207). They are both in the Bible, and apparently God does not see the two as contradictory.

    In light of this, I must also note that Calvin and the Reformed tradition DO NOT see humans as robots or the world as wholly deterministic. And I would submit that the arguments in support of that statement are not merely rationalizations that we make in order to hold on to the idea of total depravity (or any other Calvinistic idea), but rather are consequences of what we see in scripture—in this case, namely, that humans are simultaneously dead in sin and responsible for the sin that they commit.

    That’s all for now (and probably for the weekend… too much else to do). But I look forward to future discussions.

    1. George Aldhizer Avatar
      George Aldhizer

      Yeah, I’m in big time agreement with a most of this. My current difficulty with Calvinism is the challenge of whether or not it is the “best encapsulation of the theology of scripture” (something I’ve argued for on this blog), precisely because the church fathers that incorporated the scriptures into the life of the church by and large did not subscribe to the distinctives of Calvinism (the ULIP of TULIP and the denial of Christs bodily presence in the Eucharist most distinctively). Of course, if I conclude with Jeff that the “Church Fathers were fallible men just like Calvin” then I’m given space to agree with TULIP etc. But, the arguments particularly of the orthodox on this blog regarding apostolic succession don’t seem to give me that escape route if I find that persuasive (as I believe I do).

      1. Jeff Hart Avatar
        Jeff Hart

        Well, as I’ve been saying in comments all week, the authority issue (including apostolic succession) is something I intend to address in some upcoming pieces. So stay tuned.

    2. Ben Cabe Avatar

      “your argument against total depravity on the basis of the Incarnation cuts against the idea of *any* inborn sin in man, not just total depravity. Even if Mary (or her parents, or her grandparents…) were just a little depraved, it seems that that would result in the same problem you identify.” — there is a difference in kind between the West’s “Original Sin” and the East’s “Anscestral Sin.” such a thing his not a problem in the East.

      Also, I noticed your comments on Alyssa’s Sola Scriptura article so maybe I shouldn’t re-has this, but as you note the Fathers / Calvin are “fallable men,” how do you reckon the extrication of scripture from an authoritative interpretation of scripture—an interpretation that does not rely upon our individual, fallable and obviously biased, opinions of what the scripture means?

      You also mentioned that you believe reformed theology encompasses scripture and its history of interpretation in the fathers (my sum up)—I’ll be very interested to hear more about this.

      Lastly, I wonder at Calvin’s reading of Augustine and its legitimacy. Both East (Orthodox) and West (Catholic) venerate him as a Saint, but neither East nor West affirm the Reformed Theology of Calvin. That is, both reject Calvin’s reading of Augustine as a “misreading”. And they have ever since Calvin Propounded it (and also wrote correctives to St Augustine’s work, see St. John Cassian, etc).

      1. Jeff Hart Avatar
        Jeff Hart

        I would be interested in hearing more about the East’s notion of “Ancestral Sin.” I’ll readily admit that Eastern Orthodoxy is the branch of Christianity that I feel least qualified to comment on. I simply haven’t had the opportunity to study it very much.

        The short answer (which I hope to flesh out more in upcoming articles) to the question in your second paragraph is “scripture interprets scripture.” To use the language of the Westminster Confession, we interpret scripture by looking at what works out from it by “good and necessary consequence.” Since we are fallible, there will always be debate over either one of those criteria (good consequence, or necessary consequence), but that doesn’t mean that the truth is impenetrable. And it’s not impenetrable in the first place because God stands behind it and makes sure that his word is heard.

        I would phrase your third paragraph slightly differently. I was trying to say that I see continuity between the Reformed tradition and the church fathers. I’m not sure I would claim that the Reformed tradition is the best embodiment of the theology of the church fathers–but that’s not the important standard to apply. The important standard is conformity to scripture, and I believe that the Reformed tradition has made the most sense out of what God has revealed in the Bible. There are points of similarity and points of difference between the church fathers and the theology of most churches today to the extent that many of them held what would later have been considered borderline-heretical positions on certain issues (for the simple fact that theology hadn’t matured yet, historically speaking, to properly identify particular heresies). I don’t say this to diminish the church fathers, but only to say that I don’t hold them as authoritative. I’m free to disagree with them, provided my disagreement stems from the “good and necessary” consequences of scripture.

        Regarding your last paragraph, I’m not sure I have much to add. I don’t feel I’ve read broadly enough to comment on your points yet.

      2. Ben Cabe Avatar

        It is difficult to speak with Protestants about issues of this nature—my experience has been that “meaningful dialogue” is hard to achieve because (a lot of) Protestants reject the terms of “knowing” set forth by Roman Catholics and/or Eastern Orthodox Christians. That is, most do not accept “the Fathers” as a viable witness to the truth. That being said, I am grateful for your willingness to dialogue.

        It’s not that we are relying on the fathers as our only authority. Scripture is certainly authoritative. But what does scripture mean? Certainly Christian History is one big commentary on these Sacred Writings that we call “the scriptures.” Origen held something of the “scripture interprets scripture” bit. It may be true in some cases. But the real question is, if indeed Christian History is one big commentary on the Scriptures, which commentary do we subscribe to? We are fallible indeed—and if we are, how are we to think that we can interpret scripture by ourself, even if we attempt to frame it with “scripture interpreting scripture”?

        Possibly more concerning in my mind is the question of “how do you know you’ve got it right?” How are you suppose to know? There seems to me a steady stream of scriptures that talk about the “handing down” and “safeguarding” of what was handed down. As one father put it, (St. Vincent of Lerins) we can know what we believe is true by whether it was believed in Antiquity, Universally, and by Consensus. I know you read the other article where I said that, so I’ll just leave that here for this point.

        Whether or not there are similarities and dissimilarities between the particular way the Fathers spoke about the subject, the important question is, “what did they agree upon?” Looking at this, the truth comes into clearer focus—unless we want to believe, like the Mormons, that the church was in apostasy for over a thousand years before Joseph Smith (or Martin Luther, Calvin, etc.) came on the scene.

        Here are a few rough points of what they agreed on:
        Baptism saves
        the Eucharist is the Body and Blood of Christ
        The Sacraments impart Grace
        There can only be *one* Church
        Man must cooperate with God, etc.

        Sorry for the rough nature of this post—e.g., it’s not quite poetic. And it’s not meant to be a single guide to the belief of Roman Catholic or Orthodox on the Fathers / Scripture. However, I do think it’s worth noting that interpreting Scripture by scripture can still yield a number of different results. It then comes down, in my experience at least, to mud-slinging and saying that the one who opposes the others view is “not reading it right” or “not researched enough” or “not truly believing” or “being led by the spirit.” In fact, I’d go so far as to say (forgive me) that interpreting scripture by scripture is just another way of reinforcing the individuals power to “choose” what one believe about any given subject. That is, it is circular: it comes back to ones interpretation, ones method, etc.

        I do not expect you to disagree with this: we must interpret scripture within a community. But one is forced to ask what it means. For the Orthodox and the Catholics, this means the “whole” of the community, the catholicity and universality of the Church, those who have fallen asleep in Christ and those (us) alive on earth.

      3. Ben Cabe Avatar

        One clarification of the massive ramble above: if scripture cannot be read without interpretation (e.g., whenever anyone reads scripture he interprets it in some way), then the model of “scripture interpreting scripture” does not work because every scripture is read within a framework, or “interpretation.”

        Again, it means that you must have the interpretation right of the scriptures your using to interpret / clarify the scriptures your trying to interpret.

        Or again (there’s no easy way to say this, ha): if the measuring rod has to be measured, how do you know what your measuring is measured correctly?

        Or… The model of scripture interpreting scripture itself relies on a correct interpretation of scripture.

        So, to me at least, it seems circular.

      4. Jeff Hart Avatar
        Jeff Hart

        You are hitting on something important here. I would actually agree that there is something circular going on. Sorry to keep saying this, but I’ll be addressing this very point in greater depth in upcoming articles. For now, suffice it to say that circularity is built in to the nature of ultimate authorities. The minute you try to establish an ultimate authority by an external authority, it ceases to be ultimate.

      5. Joseph Green Avatar
        Joseph Green

        Forgive me for being absent from this conversation. Thank you all for your comments and effort in hashing this out.
        I certainly will not try to tackle the numerous arguments and tangents that have taken place since I posted, (and I’m ready for sleepy time right now), so I will just say that, George, I am planning to go into the issue of the wrath of God, Hell, and the other issues you asked about in the Limited Atonement article on TULIP.
        Also, this is a pretty good rundown of original versus ancestral sin:

        http://blogs.ancientfaith.com/orthodoxyandheterodoxy/2013/08/16/original-and-ancestral-sin-a-brief-comparison/

      6. Ben Cabe Avatar

        I think that’s the point. Ultimately the authority is God. The question is, how do you know you’ve got it right? Hence the three rules of St Vincent. Since REformed soteriology (specially) is wholly inconsistent with the bulk of Christian history (and the fathers use the same passages that the reformed use but in radically different—possibly completely opposite—ways).

      7. Benjamin Winter Avatar
        Benjamin Winter

        Good point; I’d like to add this (now that Ben has responded) as a secondary thought in reply to Jeff’s recent comment: we should always be on our guard against tautologies, due to the tendency of fallible human beings to justify our wills and whims based on them…certainly Jeff you were not using your argument in this way; but I do hear fundamentalists of all stripes regularly returning to the “it’s this way because it just is” logic. Such thinking is the opposite of (humble) faith seeking understanding.

        It is a true syllogism that God is God; but this profits us nothing if it remains unbalanced in our minds with the equally true syllogism that God is Relationship/Communion (reminded of John Zizioulas “Being as Communion”). Therefore, it follows that God’s authority being mediated by human beings–at the foremost point by the Human Christ–is the sine qua non for all assertions about the divine.

      8. Ben Cabe Avatar

        “Being as Communion” is a brilliant work.

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